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Looking for career advice
Thread poster: Michael Sowell
Michael Sowell
Michael Sowell
United States
Local time: 11:26
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you all, sincerely. Nov 27, 2016

Arianne Farah wrote:

Have you considered working in guest services on a cruise ship? The job requirements are usually English + other languages, preferably Spanish, French, German, Chinese & Arabic. You get to travel the world & you're paid tax free. You'd probably need a degree/diploma in hospitality, but your language skills would definitely be an asset.


I like the idea of thinking outside the box on this. I've found it difficult to find detailed explanations of where language majors could end up. Many articles on such a topic are incredibly broad and at this point I'm looking for practical information regarding ways to implement my degree, rather than to be convinced of its value. Honesty, I feel very much as if I've made a mistake on that front and should have sought a different degree upon realizing that the program in which I was enrolled was designed particularly for those who wished to become teachers, which appears to be where I'm headed. I'll certainly look into the option you've presented, Arianne, as travel is something that interests me. Are you aware of any other "out of the box" career paths, or could you point me in the direction of where that sort of practical information might be located?


I'm not entirely sure how to take some of the more controversial responses here, but I've just updated my profile to show information that I did not realize was unavailable to everyone. I'm quite new here. I was under the impression that the vast majority of translators worked from an acquired language to their native language, specifically because of the fact that most of us will likely never be able to express ourselves as well in an acquired language as in our native language. I have not done much formal writing in Spanish, but I'm confident in my English writing abilities. In fact, I very much enjoy writing. However, if the market is already flooded, then I wouldn't want to become just another amateur lowering rates for experienced translators dealing with the effects of an abundance of supply. I do intend to continue my language studies, however. I enjoy language in general. the only reason I ended up with a Spanish degree was due to it being the only language degree that my preferred school offered. Would fully learning Arabic be fruitful in the world of translation? I fully understand the difficulties associated with learning a new language, on that I need no warning nor advice. If I happen to master Arabic sometime in the next few years, would the market be much easier to manage than Spanish-English?


 
Miguel Carmona
Miguel Carmona  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:26
English to Spanish
... Nov 28, 2016

Michael Sowell wrote:

I was under the impression that the vast majority of translators worked from an acquired language to their native language, specifically because of the fact that most of us will likely never be able to express ourselves as well in an acquired language as in our native language. I have not done much formal writing in Spanish, but I'm confident in my English writing abilities.


You say:
1) The vast majority of translators work from an acquired language to their native language
2) You have not done much formal writing in Spanish
3) You are a native English speaker

Nevertheless, you advertise (your tagline, under your name) as an English into Spanish translator. It is confusing.

[Edited at 2016-11-28 18:46 GMT]


 
Michael Sowell
Michael Sowell
United States
Local time: 11:26
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Spanish to English Nov 28, 2016

Miguel Carmona wrote:

Michael Sowell wrote:

I was under the impression that the vast majority of translators worked from an acquired language to their native language, specifically because of the fact that most of us will likely never be able to express ourselves as well in an acquired language as in our native language. I have not done much formal writing in Spanish, but I'm confident in my English writing abilities.


You say:
1) The vast majority of translators work from an acquired language to their native language
2) You have not done much formal writing in Spanish
3) You are a native English speaker

Nevertheless, you advertise (your tagline, under your name) as an English into Spanish translator. It is confusing.

[Edited at 2016-11-28 18:46 GMT]


I must have made a mistake during my profile creation. It has been fixed. Thank you, and I apologize for the confusion.


 
Preston Decker
Preston Decker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:26
Chinese to English
Probably not a very good plan Nov 29, 2016

Would fully learning Arabic be fruitful in the world of translation? I fully understand the difficulties associated with learning a new language, on that I need no warning nor advice. If I happen to master Arabic sometime in the next few years, would the market be much easier to manage than Spanish-English?




The question "what if I learned XX language?" comes up fairly frequently here from prospective beginning translators. Put simply, I think it's an unlikely plan that probably takes you farther, not closer, to where you want to be professionally and financially. Not that there's anything wrong with learning a language. You absolutely should study Arabic if you're interested, but you're realistically looking at a minimum of three years of intensive in-country study before being able to begin translating. Even if that's possible, you'd still be confronting many of the issues you are today, just three years later. It's an uphill battle for most beginning translators (the only exception seems to be those making the switch from another career who already have a long list of contacts), and even if competition is less than Spanish to English, it wouldn't be non-existent and you'd have to market yourself, learn translation and the business, etc.

Not to mention that I'm not sure there's much evidence that Arabic to English is a better pair than Spanish to English. I could be completely wrong, but I'd be worried that you'd run into a bit of the problem that we Chinese to English translators have: an underdeveloped translation market in your source country. You'd think that Chinese to English would be one of the best translation pairs to be in just based upon the size of the economies involved, but it probably comes out closer to average simply because most Chinese companies can't or won't pay the money to hire a translator earning wages at a US/European level, which means that more projects are coming from the target side of things than would be ideal. Perhaps the presence of the oil companies would help, but I'd still be worried about this if I were thinking of Arabic. If you're absolutely intent on doing something like this, I personally would take a close look at either German or Japanese.

A bigger overall issue seems to be that you're unsure of what you want to do. There's nothing wrong with that, but you do want to put yourself in the best possible position while you figure things out. What about doing an MA in an Arabic speaking country? This would satisfy your love of languages, hopefully give you something useful (even if the MA wouldn't be as valued as one from the UK or US back home), and you could even try some part-time Spanish to English translation on the side. You could probably leverage the favorable exchange rate/cost of living and come out of the whole thing debt free if you really put your mind to it.

Finally, be careful of falling into the trap of thinking that language ability is strongly tied to financial/professional opportunities. Being able to speak a foreign language helps a bit, but it certainly doesn't guarantee anything. If you really want to achieve monetary success, translation likely isn't the way to do it--applying for hedge fund positions is. There are plenty of financial opportunities in the world of translation and language in general, but I would advise you to look at any move into this field more as a lifestyle one than a financial one, especially at your (assumedly) young age.
Edit: And have a look at the rate calculator (http://search.proz.com/employers/rates). It looks like both Arabic and Spanish to English come out roughly the same in terms of per word rates (though I don't know if an Arabic word is translated faster or slower than a Spanish one, which is a big factor in actual earnings).


[Edited at 2016-11-29 05:15 GMT]

[Edited at 2016-11-29 05:19 GMT]


 
Georgie Scott
Georgie Scott  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:26
French to English
+ ...
Wow Nov 29, 2016

Mario Chavez wrote:

Gabriele Demuth wrote:

Mario Chavez wrote:

From what I've read in your posting, you don't qualify as a beginner translator. What else are you very good at? And my questions about name, gender, age, etc. are important. I'm not trying to pigeonhole you, but career advice is different for men than for women (in my experience, again), and is also dependent on age and overall experience, all of which you give only a faint and broad-brushed glimpse.


How is career advice different for men and women?!

And I always thought I could choose my career according to my talents, abilities, interests...?

[Edited at 2016-11-23 18:41 GMT]


In some cultures, countries and societies, never mind some family units, a person may have more options to go outside, interact, etc. if he is a man or a woman. What if the person in question is a single mom with kids, with little time or opportunity to mingle with colleagues, let alone set aside time to visit customers?

Most female translators I've known and observed in my long career tend to be very gregarious and look for chances to go out, professionally dressed, and network, interact, find their niche.

I can't surmise or assume that this cal555 person is a man or a woman. Even if he or she is fluent in Spanish, I won't assume that this person is from a particular part of Mexico, Colombia or Spain, as I have no way of knowing. Besides, ladies tend to hit it off more easily with other ladies in our profession. When a female translator contacts me and asks me for advice I don't have, but I know someone who does, I refer her to another, perhaps more experienced female translator. But that's just me.


This is not ok. It's 2016.

This literally has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the OP's career choices. Nor does their race or sexuality.


 
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:26
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Adding languages Nov 29, 2016

Since you have already learned Spanish, and are interested in French, maybe you should focus on Romance languages. If you are good at learning languages, a combination of Spanish, Portuguese and French might be the way to go.

 
Arianne Farah
Arianne Farah  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 12:26
Member (2008)
English to French
A few more outside the box Nov 29, 2016

Flight attendant - the base salary is low at first but you get non-taxable food/tip/taxi expenses depending on your time away from base & extra languages allow you to have your pick of international destinations (longer flights, more time away from base) + the travel perks are pretty amazing.

Concierge, tour guide, basically any job where it's preferable to have a single person who speaks multiple languages at a decent level rather than several people at a native level.

... See more
Flight attendant - the base salary is low at first but you get non-taxable food/tip/taxi expenses depending on your time away from base & extra languages allow you to have your pick of international destinations (longer flights, more time away from base) + the travel perks are pretty amazing.

Concierge, tour guide, basically any job where it's preferable to have a single person who speaks multiple languages at a decent level rather than several people at a native level.

If you do decide to get into translation, pick one language pair and stick to it - to reach the mythical 10,000 hours it takes to master a skill would take twice as long if you have 2 language pairs. The only time multiple language pairs are an asset is if you want to take an in-house position and those are few and far between - as freelancers it offers no advantage - you might think at first that you'll get more jobs if you have more pairs, but what you really want to do is specialize, specialize, specialize - it's the difference between being an ok translator who charges 0.05$/word for several pairs or a great one who charges 0.15-0.20$/word for a single pair in a few choice fields - even if you get double the work in the first scenario, you're still better off specializing and charging more.
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Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:26
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Languages and specializing Nov 29, 2016

Arianne Farah wrote:

If you do decide to get into translation, pick one language pair and stick to it - to reach the mythical 10,000 hours it takes to master a skill would take twice as long if you have 2 language pairs. The only time multiple language pairs are an asset is if you want to take an in-house position and those are few and far between - as freelancers it offers no advantage - you might think at first that you'll get more jobs if you have more pairs, but what you really want to do is specialize, specialize, specialize - it's the difference between being an ok translator who charges 0.05$/word for several pairs or a great one who charges 0.15-0.20$/word for a single pair in a few choice fields - even if you get double the work in the first scenario, you're still better off specializing and charging more.


I think it depends on the individual. Some people learn languages easily, some don't. Some just don't have the interest, others do. A translator may be better at translating from several languages in fewer subject areas that they are genuinely interested in and are knowledgeable about than translating from one language and "specializing" and working in many, unrelated, subject areas.






[Edited at 2016-11-29 23:42 GMT]


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 16:26
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Either way, it's specialisation Nov 30, 2016

Michele Fauble wrote:
Arianne Farah wrote:
what you really want to do is specialize, specialize, specialize - it's the difference between being an ok translator who charges 0.05$/word for several pairs or a great one who charges 0.15-0.20$/word for a single pair in a few choice fields - even if you get double the work in the first scenario, you're still better off specializing and charging more.

I think it depends on the individual. Some people learn languages easily, some don't. Some just don't have the interest, others do. A translator may be better at translating from several languages in fewer subject areas that they are genuinely interested in and are knowledgeable about than translating from one language and "specializing" and working in many, unrelated, subject areas.

Either way, it's specialisation: subject area, or language pair, or subject area within a language pair.
The more common the pair, the more important it is to specialise.
And I don't believe anyone can learn a language to the level needed by a translator in just a couple of years, and most certainly not just by studying it at home. You won't get the nuances, the exceptions, the common native departures from 'correct' usage, the regional variations etc from a book.


 
Michael Sowell
Michael Sowell
United States
Local time: 11:26
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life." Nov 30, 2016

Preston Decker wrote:

Finally, be careful of falling into the trap of thinking that language ability is strongly tied to financial/professional opportunities. Being able to speak a foreign language helps a bit, but it certainly doesn't guarantee anything. If you really want to achieve monetary success, translation likely isn't the way to do it--applying for hedge fund positions is. There are plenty of financial opportunities in the world of translation and language in general, but I would advise you to look at any move into this field more as a lifestyle one than a financial one, especially at your (assumedly) young age.


I appreciate your advice. I fully intend to look into MA programs in Arabic speaking countries. However, I was under the impression that any skill would be tied to financial and professional opportunities, at least relative to demand. As far as demand goes, everywhere I've looked seems to indicate a rising demand for individuals with foreign language skills. This demand somehow doesn't appear to be reflected in the job market at all; everything I find is either just another customer service position or involves English as the source language rather than the target language. Thus the reason for my question earlier regarding looking for positions in other countries.

This has much more to do with finding employment in a field that I truly enjoy than it does with achieving monetary success, though I had certainly hoped that the two would go hand in hand to at least some degree. I left high school with the "do what you love" mentality. I enjoy studying languages. I can feel my French getting ever closer to the point at which I will be able to converse fluently in the language and I will most certainly learn Arabic eventually out of interest, but even now as I study French I can't help but think that it's probably just a giant waste of time. While I enjoy this, it's not easy. I didn't develop bilingual fluency as a child. Learning Spanish was something that I really had to work hard to achieve, yet I'm working at the same level as people who took four years less to get there.

Its not that I'm unsure of what I want to do - I'm absolutely sure that I want to work with languages, and speaking Spanish with angry customers just will not satisfy that desire. It's fairly counter-productive to that end, in fact. Spanish, a language that I used to love, is now just work to me. Working in translation is a fascinating prospect and I truly believe that I would enjoy it, but the market doesn't appear to favor my language pair.

At this point I'm getting out of the professional and into the sentimental, and this isn't the place to vent my frustrations. I have some specific suggestions that I'll certainly look into (thanks Arianne). I'll likely just focus more on pursuing a career in teaching. If I eventually teach in higher education then there's at least the chance that I'll be able to study language professionally in order to contribute to academic journals. I appreciate the help.


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 16:26
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Why don't you move to a different country? Dec 1, 2016

Michael Sowell wrote:
I was under the impression that any skill would be tied to financial and professional opportunities, at least relative to demand. As far as demand goes, everywhere I've looked seems to indicate a rising demand for individuals with foreign language skills. This demand somehow doesn't appear to be reflected in the job market at all; everything I find is either just another customer service position or involves English as the source language rather than the target language. Thus the reason for my question earlier regarding looking for positions in other countries.

This has much more to do with finding employment in a field that I truly enjoy than it does with achieving monetary success, though I had certainly hoped that the two would go hand in hand to at least some degree.


Its not that I'm unsure of what I want to do - I'm absolutely sure that I want to work with languages, and speaking Spanish with angry customers just will not satisfy that desire. It's fairly counter-productive to that end, in fact. Spanish, a language that I used to love, is now just work to me. Working in translation is a fascinating prospect and I truly believe that I would enjoy it, but the market doesn't appear to favor my language pair.

I'm beginning to get a much clearer picture of you and your wishes. You spoke about the possibility of looking for positions in other countries. From the above quotes, I really think you ought to consider moving to a country where you'll be immersed in one of your languages, using it for your social and perhaps eventually family life, as well as working using it. Stand things on their head and make speaking English to irate customers your job . I know you don't want to do that, so maybe a good start - at least an easy one - would be to get a basic qualification in teaching English as a foreign language (e.g. the Cambridge one). It would probably enable you to move easily to the EU, if that's your wish. I understand that teaching kids isn't your cup of tea (not mine either, and I've been there!), but maybe adults would be acceptable? Teachers here in Spain mostly don't earn much although there seem to be a lot of opportunities to work, and I suspect the same is probably true of the Latin America countries. However, in France the government gives financial aid for training and that results in pretty fair wages or, as in my case, fair rates for independent teachers. That could at least be a stop-gap. As long as you continue to use your English actively to keep it alive and current, you don't have to use it for work. So you could get a totally different job that would start building up a specialisation in case your eventual aim turns out to be translation. You'll be far more attractive to clients with in-country language experience and industry experience than you are at present.


 
Preston Decker
Preston Decker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:26
Chinese to English
Teaching Dec 1, 2016

Michael Sowell wrote:

At this point I'm getting out of the professional and into the sentimental, and this isn't the place to vent my frustrations. I have some specific suggestions that I'll certainly look into (thanks Arianne). I'll likely just focus more on pursuing a career in teaching. If I eventually teach in higher education then there's at least the chance that I'll be able to study language professionally in order to contribute to academic journals. I appreciate the help.


I taught in China for three years+ and also worked for a foreign teacher recruitment firm for a year in Beijing. Few other jobs give you the chance to be in a foreign country, do something rewarding, and still have plenty of time to study. At the time I was teaching, word was that English language teaching jobs in the Middle East were among the highest paying in the world (not many people willing to go), though I'm not sure if that's changed. Take a look into this, as you might be able to combine all your goals together? One site that used to be very good was Dave's ESL Cafe (eslcafe.com), although it might have more of an East Asian focus. I also have a high school friend who taught in Jordan and loved the experience; in fact, I think he still works for their recruitment office in New York, so PM me if you're interested in Jordan (or China, I have a few contacts over there in schools).

Most good foreign schools will require a bachelor's and at least one or two years of teaching experience--the trick is to find a school for your first year that doesn't require the teaching experience. Once you've got a year or two under your belt, your opportunities should increase greatly. Other things like a TEFL degree certainly help as well, but that can be done online or even put off for a bit.

[Edited at 2016-12-01 13:47 GMT]


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:26
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
But demand for what, exactly? Dec 1, 2016

Michael Sowell wrote:
As far as demand goes, everywhere I've looked seems to indicate a rising demand for individuals with foreign language skills. This demand somehow doesn't appear to be reflected in the job market at all; everything I find is either just another customer service position or involves English as the source language rather than the target language.

Humans are tool-using animals and languages are our most powerful tools. However, if you fixate on the tool you lose sight of whatever it is you intend to create with the tool. Tools are the means to an end, not the end itself. A joiner's damascus steel chisel may be beautiful, but the beauty is derived from the function it was created to serve.

Now, there's a word for the sort of person who is more interested in the tools themselves than what they can achieve with those tools. That word is "linguistician". That could be a potential career path for you, but it seems to be dominated by professional academics. Can you, do you want to, walk that road?

If not, and if you want to eat and keep a roof over your head, you would be advised to find "something" with high added-value that others find difficult to emulate. Foreign language skills alone are not enough. One of my teachers pointed out to me in my first week of Japanese study that, even if I were to work very hard (and I did), tens of millions of educated native speakers would still have better Japanese than me (and they do).

That "something" can be a whole range of things but ideally it should be skills or knowledge that is not easily acquired. There are thousands of possibilities. Look at the profile of Georgie Scott in this topic for an example of interesting specialization. But find that something, or you will end up as one of those people who come to the forum to complain about low rates and insufficient work.

Differentiation. It's all about differentiation.

Oh and FWIW I agree with the suggestion that you should go and immerse yourself in the language in another country.

Regards
Dan


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
paralysis by analysis Dec 1, 2016

Although one really should consider available reliable info, thinking too much kills the purpose.
Sometimes there're moments when the less info, the better--for different decisions, including crucial ones.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that a decent specialist with a foreign language competence is much better than a decent linguist with superficial/theoretical knowledge about something.

A friend of mine has a major in translation, but she enjoyed PHP-coding and now she
... See more
Although one really should consider available reliable info, thinking too much kills the purpose.
Sometimes there're moments when the less info, the better--for different decisions, including crucial ones.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that a decent specialist with a foreign language competence is much better than a decent linguist with superficial/theoretical knowledge about something.

A friend of mine has a major in translation, but she enjoyed PHP-coding and now she works as a web-designer)

Do dare
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