Lawrence Zhang (asker) Aug 28, 2014:

非常感谢！ 谢谢各位的建议和讨论。很多译法都很好，从中选择一个最合适的确实很难。这句译文是在国内准备用来教在中国的外国朋友学中文，学一些现在的流行语，这些外国朋友很多母语也不是英文。考虑这些因素，我倾向于选择 ...can't take it any more. 有很多建议都很接近这个，best answer 只能给一个，就只能给最高分的Miles了。谢谢大家。

David Lin Aug 24, 2014:

More about "Long time no see" 好久不見 or 好奈無見（廣東話） Oxford Dictionary says it's from Native American.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/long-ti...

But Urban Dictionary refers to Chinese Americans.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=long time no ...

This guy has more in his blog.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/03/09/288300303/who...

Interesting discussion!

David Lin Aug 24, 2014:

Long time no see! Wiki says it's either Native American or Chinese. But not conclusive. See the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_time_no_see

Phil Hand Aug 24, 2014:

不求天真 "Our ethnocentric or logocentric position is never as innocent as we think it is."
I agree with that 100%. But I disagree with the implication that there is a "pure" or "innocent" ideal which we fail to reach. That's why one of the most common metaphors for translation is negotiation: it's never about striving to reach one perfect goal; it's always about balancing multiple "claims" on the text. And the more the translator knows about all those claims, the better a translator she is. That's why I agree with Rita on this one: I think Z-Kong and jarv are wrong to see sex in the phrase "sucks"/"sucks balls". For the record, I literally do not know if the "balls" there means testicles or something else - this is American slang, not that common in the UK. What I mean is, English speakers react to these phrases without even seeing the sexual connotation that they may once have had. You have to know that to be able to do this translation well.

jarv95888 Aug 24, 2014:

纯粹（思考性）讨论 It is interesting if we consider how we translate "make love." There seems no problem for Chinese people to use "做爱” for the translation, though we do have quite a lot slang or formal terms (taboo-oriented) for it in our culture.
Now translate "苟合”。(Will you think "make love" will be good enough to express the source language.)
I have to make this clear. I really think this discussion is interesting and I don't think anyone of us mean any offense to each other.
The reason why I carry on this discussion is that I really think it is an interesting phenomeon if we think about the cultural positioning of a translator, where a source-language translator's linguistic or cultural orientation and that of a target-language translator do pose the double-edge nature of translation. As translators, we can understand the differences and exchange our discussions because we are bilingual or multi-lingual. Many readers are not. Our ethnocentric or logocentric position is never as innocent as we think it is.

Rita Pang Aug 24, 2014:

I don't know which region "long time no see" came from but it's indeed creole. The lit. Translation of people mountain people sea only works with an audience who speaks Chinese. I believe it was a term coined by a Music/New Artist agency in Hong Kong who used it as their agency name (correct me if I'm wrong). If I am not citing incorrectly, "gung ho" as in "he's all gung ho about doing this" is indeed one of those direct translations which worked (source came from China). In the mean time, with certain terms I guess we will just have to contend ourselves with 卡皮策。That being said though I am still a firm believer that 傷 does not necessarily have to be incorporated into the final target phrase.

Louis Stroud Aug 24, 2014:

I thought ‘long time no see’ originated from Caribbean/Patois. That’s what all the Jamaicans who lived where I grew up in London used to say when they saw you.
'People mountain people sea' – say that to an average Brit and they won’t have a clue what you are talking about, sadly.
We translators might want ot be the generals of this language exchange between two great langs and cultures, but it will be the rank and file masses that will carry it across the frontlines into general usage. Imo it would be jumping the gun to do a literal translation of shangbuqi. Bang.
As for capiche, maybe (edit:deted wo)知道吗?.. or just wait until Chinese people get into The Godfather/Sopranos/Quentin Tarantino.. then presumably 卡皮策?

Z-Kong Aug 24, 2014:

纯粹探讨 纯粹想说一声，有时候按字面翻译未必是坏事，例如 人山人海 翻译成 people mountain people sea , 很久不见 翻成 long time no see 最开始只是幽默搞怪式的翻译，但渐渐被接受了

Rita Pang Aug 24, 2014:

oh god But there is absolutely zero, Nada, nilch sexuality about the whole suggestion I've mentioned. The only thing I can say in response is lol. Despite the apparent sexual connotation to it , it is not a swear word nor will it be presumed as such by the target audience. As I've said before I can only speak so for a North American audience- Phil you can let me know if the Brits would find being stuck in traffic in the tube backed up against the wall to "suck balls". ;) if you simply think of the term as "it sucks a heck lot, it absolutely sucks" to *still* be sexual, then I'll suggest you go watch some Fox and HBO and familiarize yourself with colloquial English in the US. Miles: 說的很是，get my drift 就是“明白我的意思沒？” 但我相信肯定有更好的譯法。 I'll propose another one: what could "capische" be in Chinese? While bearing in mind origin/popular culture behind the word.

jarv95888 Aug 24, 2014:

Totally agree to Wang's view that 在“伤不起”中，伤、不起都可以在英文中找到对应的措辞.
If the source text can be rendered in the semantic level of the target language, why elevating it to a cultural level and demanding that it is "absolutely" wrong to overlook the sexual implication of the target language while the fact is that there IS NO such cultural implication in the source text?!
I also agree that it is a true and correct statement that "a translator can (and in many cases should) create a text which conveys the source using only the resources of the target culture," but I think it would be better still if we change "target culture" into "target language."

Louis Stroud Aug 24, 2014:

I agree with lots of the arguments on here from both sides. My two cents are:
1. The translator wants the translation to flow
2. the translator wants to be loyal to the cultural value in the text.
3. the translator has to consider the reader.
Shangbuqi shouldn’t jar in the target language. Imo ‘I can’t afford to get hurt!’ would jar given its general use, and an average American reader would be completely confused. It doesn’t make sense. ‘Can’t take it anymore/it sucks and I can’t take it’ others like ‘can’t bear it!/it hurts too much!’ whatever, would be understood by the reader and, if translated more artfully into the target language, should also be able to convey the inherent Chinese characteristics of it. Given the richness of English vocab and global lang/cultural influences over it, this should be possible.
Literal translations might work if the context helps with understanding(ed:/reader knows). The translator may deem the cultural/political/social significance of the phrase important enough to warrant its (edit: literal trans) introduction into the semantics of English vocabulary. Semantics might not be right but hoepfully u get my drift. Now translate get my drift intoCH

Jinhang Wang Aug 24, 2014:

"a translator can (and in many cases should) create a text which conveys the source using only the resources of the target culture. " 精辟的译论!

我觉得，在“伤不起”中，伤、不起都可以在英文中找到对应的措辞，如 hurt, can't afford.

Phil Hand Aug 24, 2014:

谬论 "If the result of the translation is demanded to be the cultural contents of the "target language," then, nothing new or alien can technically be introduced into the world of the target language."
This is not true. When an American poet writes a new poem, thinking only in English about American themes, she creates something new. When a Chinese poet writes in Chinese, she creates something new. It is simply untrue that you have to introduce elements from another culture in order to create something different. Cultures create all on their own; they can alienate all on their own.
What that means for translation is that a translator can (and in many cases should) create a text which conveys the source using only the resources of the target culture. Attempts to use the resources of the source culture will in general be uncommunicative.
J.H.：说得有道理。抽烟时，人家说：those things will kill you。我想，可不可以改过来？French grammar: that stuff will kill you... 有待改进 :/

Jinhang Wang Aug 24, 2014:

一点探讨。个人以为，应该把“伤”字翻译出来，这是三个字中的一个很关键的字，因为它表示了一种情感上感受。在 7 位高手给出的译文中，只有两位把“伤”字翻译出来了。

jarv95888 Aug 24, 2014:

Some words about ethnocentrism I think it is questionable when we say that I'm translating a source language into a target language so what matters is the "target" language. The target is the contents you are translating. The sencond language is the tool for you to explicate the target. If the result of the translation is demanded to be the cultural contents of the "target language," then, nothing new or alien can technically be introduced into the world of the target language. This is the mindset of imperialist logo-centrism.

Phil Hand Aug 24, 2014:

当然是文化差异的问题 翻译不就是一个协调文化差异的过程吗？Z-Kong，你所说的”造成源文化感的缺失"才是关键。当然，乱用热词，不顾愿意是不负责任的翻译方式。但是呢，如果汉语流行语中有恰如其分的俚语，用它无愧。举个例子，美国的Daily Show主持人Jon Stewart的名字被音译为囧，我觉得很形象，微妙地隐含他的脱口风格。
jarv: 你说“imposing something which is not in the source text" - 问题是，翻译的工作恰恰就是把文本本来没有的东西（即异语）放进去！翻译就是用外语的词汇、语法和概念把愿意表示出来。这三个是不可分割的。在这里，最关键的是“伤不起”有幽默感，很轻松。必须用幽默、轻松的语调翻译它，要不然根本没有抓住重点。而幽默是任何语种内在的东西。跨文化的幽默移植往往都要以落败告终。
”BUT it is an apparent ethnocentic fallacy to demand the Chinese seller to use nothing but an American fruit name to describe the Chinese fruit.“
fallacy我不太懂，但可以确定的是，你跟顾客讲听不懂的话，生意肯定不好。

jarv95888 Aug 23, 2014:

纯粹为探讨 to Phil If I understand it correctly, the statement "绝对不能拿中国对”性器官"的反感来对待英文的俚语" is elevating the issue onto a cultural context and such a statement involves ethnocentric fallacy.
The case here is not about using Chinese ideology to treat/mistreat English slang. Instead, it is a matter of avoiding imposing something which is not in the source text onto it in order to meet the taste of the target language.
I know this is quite equivocal but let me put it this way in order to make it clearer.
If a Chinese seller is selling a local fruit to an American, s/he doesn't have the "absolute" duty to use an American name in order to sell his fruit. It is not wrong when s/he fails to do so. AND it is not wrong either for an American to use his native name to describe the new fruit.
BUT it is an apparent ethnocentic fallacy to demand the Chinese seller to use nothing but an American fruit name to describe the Chinese fruit.
In the first place, there isn't "phallic" implication in the Chinese expression. It is an imperialist mindset to say that our English language is used to this kind of implication, so when your cultural context is to be translated into our society, you have to use our way or high way

Z-Kong Aug 23, 2014:

纯粹为探讨 这种时尚网络语言，若源文没有“性器官”，翻译是否可以利用目标语言中的俚语进行转换，做到借梁换柱，这是一个有趣的问题。我曾看到中国野生字幕组把外语翻成中文的过程中，使用了中国网络语言，例如“苦逼”“细思恐极”等，招致许多观众的不满，在微博等处吐槽说认为强行加入了汉语文化不伦不类，造成源文化感的缺失。我觉得他们说的也在理。当然也有观众认为懂了就行，不在乎这些。

Phil Hand Aug 23, 2014:

Rita +1 绝对不能拿中国对”性器官"的反感来对待英文的俚语，会产生很大的误会，就像Rita 说的，sucks balls之类的俚语一点也不严重。想做流行语言的翻译，就必须深入了解目标文化，不然只是皮毛而已。

Rita Pang Aug 22, 2014:

呃，要是真的較真，不會只是discussion entry，而是提出答案了。純粹討論而已。我當然知道it sucks 來源如何，類似的說話怎麼可能只會適用於網上？近來甚至有Reddit forum 大舉討論為什麼這麼多人(尤其是女生)經常說這句話。怎樣都好，我離體了，不是故意搞局什麼的，純有感而發，如有冒犯，抱歉。

jarv95888 Aug 22, 2014:

No offense! Man, you're really taking it too seriously.
I mean the expression itself is an internet expression, an open and neutral (in contrast to vulgar) one. It's not so personalized a style of usage as the slang you're suggesting.
http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic51916.html

Z-Kong Aug 22, 2014:

伤不起的用法 Hi 我就想解释一下在中文里伤不起一般都是在主语后。例如，我等屌丝伤不起啊，没ipad的人伤不起啊，8点还在加班的人伤不起啊等等。这个phrase是用来自嘲的，并非特指某件事怎样，而是自嘲自己、或这类人实在太苦逼了、不能再受伤了。因此在翻译时往往会需要和主语一起翻。（个人观点）

Rita Pang Aug 22, 2014:

Localization This will depend on your audience and the context. In North America, despite the fact that "sexual organs" have been mentioned, it is often not seen as vulgar at all. I think you guys overreacted a bit here. I find this expression perfectly normal if it's on an online forum, and would not take offense at all. I can't speak for other English-speaking regions.

By the way, this is simply adding to the conversation, IMHO translation of a "non-slang common saying" does not always mean that the actual target term has to be the same. There is NO fixed term here, IMO- depending on the context, both Z-Kong and Miles' suggestion could work. That's why if you've looked at my comments below, I've mentioned that combination of both their suggestions would be perfect, in my personal opinion. :)

jarv95888 Aug 22, 2014:

You still don't get it: "The idea is not there."
The original expression doesn't involve that level of slang usage.
I'm leaning more to Kong's suggestion, perhaps without the subject (Can't afford...).

Z-Kong Aug 22, 2014:

我觉得伤不起本身是个有趣并且幽默的说法 最好能避免涉及性器官的用词比较好吧。而且用伤不起的时候一般并不是真的挫败感很强的意思，一般都是在说笑

Rita Pang Aug 22, 2014:

All the time. I myself say it to stress how frustrated I am, so do my female friends. Just because it involves terms which pivot more towards guys does not mean it's so vulgar that female usage thereof is excluded. In all fairness, of course, this could limit to a certain age group, and of course certain crowds could take offense to the word. It's not a swear word, but some might find it simply impossible to utter the word.
Simply my opinion.

jarv95888 Aug 22, 2014:

Are you sure women also use this?

Rita Pang Aug 22, 2014:

It sucks balls.... In case anyone wonders why:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sucks balls