Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
unplaced
French translation:
dont le lien de parenté est inconnu
Added to glossary by
Cassandra Delacote
Dec 21, 2017 14:23
6 yrs ago
2 viewers *
English term
unplaced
English to French
Social Sciences
Genealogy
placed or unplaced
The context is a genealogical system that assigns names to people, a genealogical number, a serial number, a date of birth etc.
Here is the sentence:
The first person with a particular surname that came to South Africa receives the genealogical number a1. His children are b1, b2, b3, etc. and their children c1, c2, c3, etc.
A. A person’s descendants are completed first before his brothers’ descendants are named.
In cases where persons could not be placed, they are numbered from A1, for example A3B2 is the second child of the unplaced A3.
Does it refer to:
- someone that cannot be found on the register? And if they cannot be found on the register, why not?
- Someone whose locality in SA cannot be found?
- Someone whose identity cannot be established?
Furthermore, this is the response I received from the client, but which somehow has not made the meaning in English clear to me:
"The idea is that these people should be "placed" or be put in a place and some can be placed according to locality and others not (unplaced). Probably the unplaced ones will become placed one day as research is still ongoing."
Your explanations/suggested translation would be most welcome.
Here is the sentence:
The first person with a particular surname that came to South Africa receives the genealogical number a1. His children are b1, b2, b3, etc. and their children c1, c2, c3, etc.
A. A person’s descendants are completed first before his brothers’ descendants are named.
In cases where persons could not be placed, they are numbered from A1, for example A3B2 is the second child of the unplaced A3.
Does it refer to:
- someone that cannot be found on the register? And if they cannot be found on the register, why not?
- Someone whose locality in SA cannot be found?
- Someone whose identity cannot be established?
Furthermore, this is the response I received from the client, but which somehow has not made the meaning in English clear to me:
"The idea is that these people should be "placed" or be put in a place and some can be placed according to locality and others not (unplaced). Probably the unplaced ones will become placed one day as research is still ongoing."
Your explanations/suggested translation would be most welcome.
Proposed translations
(French)
| 4 | dont le lien de parenté est inconnu |
Jennifer Levey
|
| 4 +1 | en attente de placement |
surbeg
|
| 3 +1 | (non) identifiables |
Elena Radkova
|
Proposed translations
50 mins
Jennifer Levey
Chile
Chile
Native in English
Specializes in field
Chile
Human-scale Globalization
Native in: English (Variant: British) 
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English, English to Spanish, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
10
Selected
dont le lien de parenté est inconnu
I don’t think your client’s explanation is correct. The mere fact that a person cannot be “placed” geographically is no reason to give them special numbers. In most genealogies going back a few generations there are many individuals who cannot be “placed according to locality” (or even to any specific country).
“placed” refers here to the establishment of the person’s “place” on the family tree – as the child, sibling or parent of someone else whose place is known.
In cases where persons could not be placed, …
--> (par example)
Les personnes dont le lien de parenté (parentage) est inconnu/indéterminé reçoivent des numéros commençant par A1, …
Source: 50+ years experience in the field.
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Note added at 1 hr (2017-12-21 15:27:09 GMT)
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Just to add that “unplaced” people may arise while managing a genealogical database when individuals are found in public or private records who seem to have some relationship to the family under investigation but the precise relationship is unknown. For example, a census record may name five children all with surname “Smith” living in a house where the head of household is “John Smith”. But it may already be known (eg, from a will) that John Smith only had three children. So, who are the other two “Smiths”? They might be siblings or nephews/nieces of John Smith, but without corroborating evidence they cannot be properly “placed”. And it might be a mere coincidence that John Smith had two lodgers named “Smith” who were not related to him at all. While the relationship is uncertain, these two “Smiths” will be given A1 … numbers.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2017-12-21 16:28:34 GMT)
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I wonder if the client’s explanation (which Cassandra herself finds unclear) is not necessarily incorrect (as I suggested initially), but simply ambiguous.
The idea is that these people should be "placed" or be put in a place and some can be placed according to locality and others not (unplaced). Probably the unplaced ones will become placed one day as research is still ongoing.
--> might be read as:
The idea is that these people should be put in their proper place in the family tree. Some can be placed by virtue of their sharing a common locality (eg, they live in the same house in a census return), and others not (eg, because there is no ‘locality’ data available). Probably the un-placed individuals (= those with no known family relationship) will be placed (in the same genealogical sense) one day, as research (eg, into census records) is still ongoing.
That said, it is generally considered “unsafe” to establish relationships in a family tree on the basis of mere “geographical localization” data (census records, shared plots in a cemetery, etc.) without corroborating evidence such as BMD records, wills, etc. – as per the Smith family example I gave earlier. Better, as in the system described in the ST, to put these “unplaced” persons in a separate numbering sequence, until there is sufficient evidence to attach them in their proper “place” in the tree.
While I’m here, it’s perhaps worth mentioning that the numbering scheme referred to is a variant of the Aboville system (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numérotation_d'Aboville ).
“placed” refers here to the establishment of the person’s “place” on the family tree – as the child, sibling or parent of someone else whose place is known.
In cases where persons could not be placed, …
--> (par example)
Les personnes dont le lien de parenté (parentage) est inconnu/indéterminé reçoivent des numéros commençant par A1, …
Source: 50+ years experience in the field.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2017-12-21 15:27:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Just to add that “unplaced” people may arise while managing a genealogical database when individuals are found in public or private records who seem to have some relationship to the family under investigation but the precise relationship is unknown. For example, a census record may name five children all with surname “Smith” living in a house where the head of household is “John Smith”. But it may already be known (eg, from a will) that John Smith only had three children. So, who are the other two “Smiths”? They might be siblings or nephews/nieces of John Smith, but without corroborating evidence they cannot be properly “placed”. And it might be a mere coincidence that John Smith had two lodgers named “Smith” who were not related to him at all. While the relationship is uncertain, these two “Smiths” will be given A1 … numbers.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2017-12-21 16:28:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I wonder if the client’s explanation (which Cassandra herself finds unclear) is not necessarily incorrect (as I suggested initially), but simply ambiguous.
The idea is that these people should be "placed" or be put in a place and some can be placed according to locality and others not (unplaced). Probably the unplaced ones will become placed one day as research is still ongoing.
--> might be read as:
The idea is that these people should be put in their proper place in the family tree. Some can be placed by virtue of their sharing a common locality (eg, they live in the same house in a census return), and others not (eg, because there is no ‘locality’ data available). Probably the un-placed individuals (= those with no known family relationship) will be placed (in the same genealogical sense) one day, as research (eg, into census records) is still ongoing.
That said, it is generally considered “unsafe” to establish relationships in a family tree on the basis of mere “geographical localization” data (census records, shared plots in a cemetery, etc.) without corroborating evidence such as BMD records, wills, etc. – as per the Smith family example I gave earlier. Better, as in the system described in the ST, to put these “unplaced” persons in a separate numbering sequence, until there is sufficient evidence to attach them in their proper “place” in the tree.
While I’m here, it’s perhaps worth mentioning that the numbering scheme referred to is a variant of the Aboville system (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numérotation_d'Aboville ).
Note from asker:
| This is a very interesting and unexpected reply. And I really thank you for it. I would just say however that it is somewhat far from the original English word. And I hesitate to go against the client's explanation although your sounds to plausible. I will think it over a bit more before deciding. |
| I also respect your expertise, and I might well run your answer/explanation by the client. |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you for this excellent and extremely helpful reply"
+1
3 hrs
en attente de placement
Quand on en saura plus sur ces personnes, on pourra peut-être les positionner dans l'arbre.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Jennifer Levey
: If you want to stick closer to a literal translation, and at the same time be faithful to the context, "en attente de point d'attache" might be better, since it implies the determination of a proven link between the individual and the family tree.
5 hrs
|
| agree |
GILLES MEUNIER
3 days 14 hrs
|
+1
6 hrs
Elena Radkova
Native in French
Яснота
Native in: Bulgarian , French
Works in: English to French, Russian to French, French to Bulgarian, and 1 more.
(non) identifiables
selon leur lieu de naissance ou liens de parenté
(suggestion)
(suggestion)
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Jennifer Levey
: "unplaced", in this context, does not imply that the person cannot be identified ("non identifiable"). On the contrary, their identity is known (at least, a part of their name), but not their relationship to the family under investigation.
1 hr
|
| agree |
Irène Guinez
12 hrs
|
|
Merci!
|
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