...ignifugé contre les flammes de la présence « barbare »

English translation: the "barbarous" reality

12:14 May 7, 2019
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Cinema, Film, TV, Drama / Experimental film
French term or phrase: ...ignifugé contre les flammes de la présence « barbare »
This is the from the foreword to a book on experimental film. The content is quite philosophical but I am struggling with this particular phrase, particularly "la présence 'barbare'". Here it is in context...

Et soudain, par la seule force de ses films, un artiste déchire ce voile de Maya ignifugé contre les flammes de la présence « barbare », selon l’adjectif de Jean Epstein1, c’est-à-dire d’une présence nouménale et non pas phénoménale. Soudain quelqu’un ne se contente pas de « tenir-pour », quelqu’un voit.

It carries a footnote but having done what research I can, I am none the wiser:

« C’est le miracle de la présence réelle, la vie manifeste, ouverte comme une belle grenade, pelée de son écorce, assimilable, barbare ». Jean Epstein, « Conférence Lacroix » (1920), in Écrits complets, volume II, Paris, Éditions de l’Œil, 2019, p. 186.

I am tempted to say something like... resisatnt to attack from a "barborous" presence but feel I may have strayed too far from the original text. Any help would be much appreciated.
Frances Scott
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:26
English translation:the "barbarous" reality
Explanation:
I think unless you can find an authoritative translation of Epstein which renders "barbare" as anything other than "barbarous", it is best to stick to the close cognate. I could see it being "brutal", "brutish", "savage", "raw", "unfettered", "uncivilised" or countless other adjectives but since we are quoting Epstein I say stay as close to his word as possible.

In the original work, Epstein is referring to the proximity allowed between viewer and subject matter by the medium of film, without even the footlights to shield them, where they are faced with the startling, brutal viscera of reality, an image he underscores by evoking the appearance of a peeled pomegranate - messy, red, fibrous.

"The presence" is strange in English unless we are saying the presence of something or someone. Even though Epstein uses "présence" in his sentence as well I don't believe it works alone. He is referring to either the presence of the viewer right in front of the subject, or vice versa, or to avoid confusion, their being in the direct presence of one another.

I think that because what is shocking to the viewer in this context is being connected directly to the subject, and because Epstein refers to "présence réelle" and "vie manifeste", we could go with "barbarous reality". This collocation works better in English.

I am saying nothing as to the first part of the sentence as the main thrust of your question seems to be about "barabare" and I think it is up to you whether you stick with the fire/flame-retardant/resistant metaphor or replace it with something not mentioning flames specifically; either would be fine.

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Note added at 30 mins (2019-05-07 12:45:51 GMT)
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Incidentally, if your ST put "la présence barbare" all inside the quotes, I might advocate "barbarous presence" but since the ST is quoting a single word, it becomes our business how we express what is outside that; we owe no fidelity to Epstein on the word "presence", if you see what I mean.
Selected response from:

James Roden
France
Local time: 13:26
Grading comment
Thank you James, really appreciate this very useful feedback plus the additional comments from Phillippa and Hermione. It has been of great help.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +2the "barbarous" reality
James Roden
5...resistant to the flames of the 'barbaric' presence
Eliza Hall


Discussion entries: 7





  

Answers


26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
la présence « barbare »
the "barbarous" reality


Explanation:
I think unless you can find an authoritative translation of Epstein which renders "barbare" as anything other than "barbarous", it is best to stick to the close cognate. I could see it being "brutal", "brutish", "savage", "raw", "unfettered", "uncivilised" or countless other adjectives but since we are quoting Epstein I say stay as close to his word as possible.

In the original work, Epstein is referring to the proximity allowed between viewer and subject matter by the medium of film, without even the footlights to shield them, where they are faced with the startling, brutal viscera of reality, an image he underscores by evoking the appearance of a peeled pomegranate - messy, red, fibrous.

"The presence" is strange in English unless we are saying the presence of something or someone. Even though Epstein uses "présence" in his sentence as well I don't believe it works alone. He is referring to either the presence of the viewer right in front of the subject, or vice versa, or to avoid confusion, their being in the direct presence of one another.

I think that because what is shocking to the viewer in this context is being connected directly to the subject, and because Epstein refers to "présence réelle" and "vie manifeste", we could go with "barbarous reality". This collocation works better in English.

I am saying nothing as to the first part of the sentence as the main thrust of your question seems to be about "barabare" and I think it is up to you whether you stick with the fire/flame-retardant/resistant metaphor or replace it with something not mentioning flames specifically; either would be fine.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 30 mins (2019-05-07 12:45:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Incidentally, if your ST put "la présence barbare" all inside the quotes, I might advocate "barbarous presence" but since the ST is quoting a single word, it becomes our business how we express what is outside that; we owe no fidelity to Epstein on the word "presence", if you see what I mean.

Example sentence(s):
  • Entre le spectacle et le spectateur, aucune rampe. On ne regarde pas la vie, on la pénètre. Cette pénétration permet toutes les intimités. Un visage, sous la loupe, fait la roue, étale sa géographie fervente
  • C'est le miracle de la présence réelle, la vie manifeste, ouverte comme une belle grenade, pelée de son écorce, assimilable, barbare.
James Roden
France
Local time: 13:26
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thank you James, really appreciate this very useful feedback plus the additional comments from Phillippa and Hermione. It has been of great help.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Philippa Smith: Agree with everything except "reality" rather than "presence", in the light of the rest of the sentence, when "presence" is repeated; I feel that it is too important a notion in the sentence to change to "reality". / Yes, "a barbarous presence" imho.
1 hr
  -> I may take too much liberty yes. I might still use presence later in sentence as it is "a" presence. Could this instance be "a" presence, maybe? "A barbarous presence"? Problem is just "the presence" without it being the presence *of* something.

agree  Herbmione Granger: I prefer 'raw/unfettered reality'. Veil of the Maya: http://www4.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/WDGroup2/Sub Pages...
3 hrs

neutral  Eliza Hall: I don't like "reality" but "barbarous" is good (so is barbaric). We're quoting someone, after all: Epstein chose "barbare" as his adjective and the OP's writer chose to quote that word directly. So I would stick with their choices rather than synonyms.
1 day 3 hrs
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1 day 3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
...resistant to the flames of the 'barbaric' presence


Explanation:
"...the artist tears away the veil of Maya, which is resistant to the flames of the 'barbaric' presence, to use the adjective of Jean Epstein; that is to say, a numinous rather than phenomenal presence..."

I tweaked the punctuation a tiny bit to help it read better in English. You can throw twenty-five commas into a French sentence and no one bats an eye, but we don't like that in English. :)

As for "the presence" without any "of," I'm a native English speaker who's lived and studied in two Anglophone countries (US and UK) and I have no problem with "presence" by itself. The Oxford English Dictionary doesn't either... https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/presence

And here's something on the numinous/noumenon vs. phenomenal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenon

I chose the "highest/I am sure" confidence level because this is obviously correct and the exact wording is a matter of taste. IOW other people might propose different translations and, as long as they're correct, still legitimately put "highest/I am sure" based on their own tastes.

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 08:26
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
Notes to answerer
Asker: Very much appreciate your input Eliza. In the light of what everyone has said I am much closer to a decision on my final draft.

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