| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Poll: Do you feel that it is "Us vs. Them" when it comes to freelancers and agencies? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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This forum topic is for the discussion of the poll question "Do you feel that it is "Us vs. Them" when it comes to freelancers and agencies?".
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Agencies are not the enemy. I see the ones I work with as my partners and I have a friendly relationship built over the years with some of them. I’m always extremely surprised when I read here about past difficult stories some of my peers had with some agencies.
| | | | Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:07
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| It's actually bad actors vs the good guys | Jan 28, 2023 |
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
Agencies are not the enemy.
I also responded with "No" but I suppose the fact is that some participants in the market have no respect or care for their partners in business. That holds for those agencies that are always trying to cheat honest freelancers or screw them for every last penny, and also for those freelancers who misrepresent their abilities and credentials to honest agencies, and knowingly submit poor-quality translations that they have created or plagiarised.
Presumably any unregulated market suffers from similar problems. There will always be bad apples. Establishing which apples are good and which are bad is a serious issue for both buyers and sellers, which is why credibility and authenticity are so important.
Perhaps a more apposite question would be "Do you feel that it is "Us vs. Them" when it comes to bad actors and those who act in good faith?". To that I would answer with an emphatic "Yes".
I respect the agencies with which I work. Their people are diligent and professional in approach. I have no time at all for unprofessional bottom-feeders who are winging it in the hope of making a quick profit.
Dan
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:07
Member (2008)
Italian to English
ProZ.com Staff wrote:
"Do you feel that it is "Us vs. Them" when it comes to freelancers and agencies?"
No. I always seek a horizontal, collaborative attitude, in which the agency and I are equals. If it isn't like that, I don't work with them.
[Edited at 2023-01-28 09:51 GMT]
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Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 13:07
Member
English to Turkish
| At the risk of getting into an argument (for which I have no time at the moment) | Jan 28, 2023 |
But the question is interesting and I can't help but share my thoughts on the subject (though it's not related to the question per se)
I feel that there is an "Us vs. Them" divide between my language pair and those translating from and into major languages, especially into English, in other words, there is a divide between me and other freelancers (and why is it that this question assumes that "we, the freelancers" are one and the same, united against the "agencies"?)
I believe that ... See more But the question is interesting and I can't help but share my thoughts on the subject (though it's not related to the question per se)
I feel that there is an "Us vs. Them" divide between my language pair and those translating from and into major languages, especially into English, in other words, there is a divide between me and other freelancers (and why is it that this question assumes that "we, the freelancers" are one and the same, united against the "agencies"?)
I believe that my reality vastly differs from those translating into and from major languages, and there are several aspects that put them at a greater advantage despite their bitching and moaning about low rates, MT, gobble up agencies and the inevitable "translation is dead as a profession" topic that rears its ugly head every now and then.
1- When a translator translating from German, Spanish or French into English is asked to take a test translation, their test piece is evaluated by an independent source (by someone outside the agency) and they're likely to get a fair assessment. If they think their test is unfairly assessed, they can point those out to the PM, VM or whoever, and since it's in English and the source language in French or German (meaning not in a language as exotic as Georgian or Turkish), the PM can see if an error has been made and arrange another assessor to have a look. I have no such chance. My test piece is evaluated by the agency's Turkish freelance translator (who has a financial relationship with them), and I'm totally at the mercy of their whims, if that person doesn't want competition for the scarce Turkish jobs coming to the agency then I have no chance at all. This has happened to me 3 times so far, and it's put me off applying to new agencies.
2- Every PM in the world speaks English and can tell a good translation in English, and they're also likely to be versed in German or French so they can tell a good translation in those languages as well. But they can't tell a good translation in Turkish. An incompetent translator in my pair can get away with crap translations until the agency receives a complaint from their client, or they don't receive any complaints at all if there is a better, more seasoned Turkish translator on hand to make a decent translation of that crap as a reviewer/editor/proofreader. PMs value good translators and good translators stand to command better rates. Do I need to go on?
3- There are more jobs in major languages than there are in my language pair despite the inflated number of translators. An EN>DUT/GER/FR translator has a lot to choose from, and has the luxury turn down jobs if they don't like them. I can't afford to be as picky as them.
There must be other points that I can't think of right now. I'm not looking to get into a protracted debate with anybody here as I don't have the time right now (got busy late last week despite my whinging). But these are my impressions as a EN>TR freelancer who broke into the European translation market 6 years ago and from what I've observed on these forums.
Have a nice day  ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 11:07
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Freelancers need agencies/direct clients and agencies/direct clients need freelancers. We are all in this together. If you feel your agency clients are basically working against you, you are not in a healthy business relationship ('healthy' meaning you are happy with the agency's conditions or the agency is happy with your conditions) and if you are not able to establish healthy business relationships with agencies (or direct clients) you might consider doing something else.
| | | | Geoffrey Black
Israel
Local time: 12:07
Member (2017)
Hebrew to English
+ ...
| Generally no, but it depends. | Jan 28, 2023 |
Most agencies are honest and pay when and the amount promised. Some haggle before and or after work has been done. I had 1 case where an agency took advantage of Proz technicalities to not pay at all and still retain a spotless Blue Board record.
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Baran Keki wrote:
I'm not looking to get into a protracted debate with anybody here as I don't have the time right now
Well in that case I’ll put the argument to bed myself. You’re very wrong on points 1 and 2, and probably on 3 as well.
😘😘
PS Yes I think it is still us vs them, even with the good ones. We both want a bigger slice of the money.
[Edited at 2023-01-28 19:25 GMT]
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I reject broad classifications like this that try to force people into groups based on nothing but a collective term.
There are good agencies and bad agencies; good freelancers and bad freelancers. Lumping them all together as if they were a homogeneous mass is just insulting and I want no part of it.
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on the agency....
Good agencies have fair rates your work is seen as part of a complex mechanism, therefore they are based on constant feedbacks aimed at improving the quality of the work also providing clear examples of the end client needs and requirements that sometimes need time to be assimilated
Bad agencies offer low rates, and they kick you out as soon as they find someone who can work for even lower rates.
no feedbacks are given and they "want" you to understand ... See more on the agency....
Good agencies have fair rates your work is seen as part of a complex mechanism, therefore they are based on constant feedbacks aimed at improving the quality of the work also providing clear examples of the end client needs and requirements that sometimes need time to be assimilated
Bad agencies offer low rates, and they kick you out as soon as they find someone who can work for even lower rates.
no feedbacks are given and they "want" you to understand instructions ... they never give.
In that case it becomes a "us vs. them" ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 11:07
French to English
No and that would be a very unhealthy way of looking at your business relationships.
I have a healthy, respectful relationship with the agencies I work for.
I'm well aware that they do valuable work, especially when handling projects to be translated into several languages, and preparing CAT files for me, and proofreading my work. I love it when I get feedback or when they ask questions about why I chose this or that term or turn of phrase.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 11:07
French to English
You make some good points Baran and we translators of major languages into English have more work, and can specialise more and I'm grateful for that and I'm sorry the playing field is not level simply because my ancestors were highly successful at being warmongering colonisers, but I have to take issue with the comments I've quoted below. I would have preferred to bold them, to keep the rest, but Proz hasn't yet worked out how to give us simple bold buttons.
Baran Keki wrote:
1- When a translator translating from German, Spanish or French into English is asked to take a test translation, their test piece is evaluated by an independent source (by someone outside the agency) and they're likely to get a fair assessment.
No, tests into English are not necessarily assessed by independent sources. I assessed tons of tests when working at an agency.
Although I did still do my best to give them a fair assessment!
Baran Keki wrote:
2- Every PM in the world speaks English and can tell a good translation in English.
Would you mind if I added a couple of bits in caps to make it reflect reality better:
Every PM in the world speaks SOME English and THINKS THEY can tell a good translation in English.
My clients are all French, and none of them can really assess just how good my translations are. The vast majority of the time, when they make suggestions to improve or correct my text, they make it sound more like the French source, and I'm constantly explaining that if I didn't go the lazy route. For example I could leave the term "intelligent" as is, Word doesn't underline it so it's OK, but I change it because "smart" would sound more natural, or "clever" would fit better into the rhythm of the sentence.
Even a client who was wildly enthusiastic about my test translation, who absolutely loved my writing style, because it was just right for her specialist subjects (fashion and cosmetics), then sent another email basically asking if we could change this and this and this and this... to the point that almost all the parts where I had gone to town on making the translation sound very natural and appeal to native English speakers had been toned down, watered down and ironed out. I've even had to devise a whole strategy for dealing with such requests, to make sure that they believe me when I tell them that I put what I put for a good reason and making it sound more like the French would be a bad strategy and there's no point paying me to do the translation when it seems like Google would have been vastly sufficient for them.
[Edited at 2023-01-30 09:05 GMT]
[Edited at 2023-01-30 09:06 GMT]
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Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 05:07
Japanese to English
+ ...
Most agencies want "cheap" rather than "quality" so that answers the question.
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 13:07
Member
English to Turkish
Kay Denney wrote:
You make some good points Baran and we translators of major languages into English have more work, and can specialise more and I'm grateful for that and I'm sorry the playing field is not level simply because my ancestors were highly successful at being warmongering colonisers, but I have to take issue with the comments I've quoted below. I would have preferred to bold them, to keep the rest, but Proz hasn't yet worked out how to give us simple bold buttons.
No, tests into English are not necessarily assessed by independent sources. I assessed tons of tests when working at an agency.
Although I did still do my best to give them a fair assessment!
Would you mind if I added a couple of bits in caps to make it reflect reality better:
Every PM in the world speaks SOME English and THINKS THEY can tell a good translation in English.
My clients are all French, and none of them can really assess just how good my translations are. The vast majority of the time, when they make suggestions to improve or correct my text, they make it sound more like the French source, and I'm constantly explaining that if I didn't go the lazy route. For example I could leave the term "intelligent" as is, Word doesn't underline it so it's OK, but I change it because "smart" would sound more natural, or "clever" would fit better into the rhythm of the sentence.
Even a client who was wildly enthusiastic about my test translation, who absolutely loved my writing style, because it was just right for her specialist subjects (fashion and cosmetics), then sent another email basically asking if we could change this and this and this and this... to the point that almost all the parts where I had gone to town on making the translation sound very natural and appeal to native English speakers had been toned down, watered down and ironed out. I've even had to devise a whole strategy for dealing with such requests, to make sure that they believe me when I tell them that I put what I put for a good reason and making it sound more like the French would be a bad strategy and there's no point paying me to do the translation when it seems like Google would have been vastly sufficient for them.
[Edited at 2023-01-30 09:05 GMT]
[Edited at 2023-01-30 09:06 GMT]
Please don't assume the white guilt on my account. Though, having said this, I wouldn't mind being born in the affluent Norway and helping myself to a piece of that white Western privilege as a translator, you know working with those fabled 'boutique agencies' and all that (just kidding! Keep your shirts on!)
I think that those 3 points (namely, (i) fair test assessments* (ii) appreciation of one's competence through first-hand experience** and (iii) availability/abundance of jobs in a given language pair) I've mentioned (which Ice Scream considers wrong, and I'd like to know why so I can educate myself, seriously I'd love to hear an English translator's POV on the subject, I'm probably wrong on many things) are the very things that the translators of major languages such as yourself take for granted when dishing out advice to newbies on these forums. And because of this, the advice 'you people' (I'm using this jokingly here, don't take umbrage) give on practical matters (like raising rates, finding jobs, agencies etc.) are usually inapplicable in other language pairs like mine. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of good advice being given to newbies like writing a good resume, subject matter specialization, marketing yourself, not ending your emails with 'Have a nice day' etc., which are common sensical enough, applicable across the board and free (considering those $99.99 early bird specials).
*I think it was Ice Scream who said that he was an external assessor assessing other translators' tests for agencies. But even if your test is assessed by the agency's FR/GER/SPA>EN freelance translator, the chances are they will be more impartial and honest (barring the over-zealous/know-all idiots) when assessing your test compared to the same agency's EN>TR freelance translator who has a very good reason to keep his privileged position considering the scarcity of Turkish translation jobs (I can't stress enough how rare they are compared to the jobs in French, German or Spanish). What's more, you can always appeal to the agency and point out their mistakes and they'll see it as it is in English. In my case, the assessor's word is final. I can't begin to tell you how frustrating it is to be subject to this kind of injustice. If anybody thinks I'm being a cynical bastard who thinks ill of his fellow colleagues, they can contact me privately via email and I can share them with a bogus test assessment and my subsequent email exchanges with the agency to show them the kind of shit I'm dealing with in my pair.
** The very fact that your client nitpicks about your translations shows that they know your quality, your work, and they read it and see it. In my case they don't even bloody see it. Who the hell understands a word of Turkish? My work goes directly to their clients or to the reviewer/proofreader to be butchered or defiled.
I don't presume to know why the agency or clients are being such hard asses about your translations (I'm assuming you're translating into English, not into French). It's maybe because they're used to seeing American English and want more American words, tone and style?
I once received a few English texts from a French agency (they were originally translated from French into Br English) and there were short videos where those English texts were used. Hearing those Br English texts voiced by an American person was a bit weird at times.
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Teresa already explained why. No need me to repeat as I second all her words
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