Jan 11, 2007 06:28
17 yrs ago
English term

The orders that we

Non-PRO English Art/Literary Linguistics
"The orders were that we had evacuated the area within hours to prevent further loss of life."

Hello I am checking out a paper and I wonder if I can replace "had evacuated" with a subjunctive " such as:

The orders were that we evacuate the area
The orders were that we should evacuate the area

Is it possible?

Responses

+6
1 min
Selected

both are possible

.

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Note added at 3 mins (2007-01-11 06:31:04 GMT)
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- the difference being as follows:

- that we evacuate the area - American English
- that we should evacuate the area - British English

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Note added at 1 hr (2007-01-11 07:40:49 GMT)
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Well I am pretty sure a subjunctive is possible when an order is in order. :-)
Example:
1. He ordered that the house be sold.

In this particular sentence, a passive structure followed by an infinitive is also possible:
We were ordered to evacuate the area.
Peer comment(s):

agree David Moore (X) : IMO, the difference is not AE/BE, but personal preference - I for example prefer "that we evacuate"...
2 hrs
Thank you, David. Well some grammarians (Michael Swan, Practical English Usage, Oxford University Press) think such a distinction can be made.
agree cmwilliams (X) : "we were ordered to evacuate..." sounds more natural to me. Otherwise, I'd use "that we evacuate".
3 hrs
Thank you, cmwilliams.
agree Tony M : I don't think it's an AE/BE issue, more a case of formal vs. informal usage. But I think Heinrich's suggested rephrasing, though not essential, actually produces a better result
3 hrs
Thank you, Tony M.
agree Vicky Papaprodromou
6 hrs
Thank you, Vicky.
agree Alfa Trans (X)
11 hrs
Thank you, Marju.
agree Sophia Finos (X)
19 hrs
Thank you, Sophia.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+3
9 mins

Rephrase

The/Our orders were to evacuate the area.

Why are you considering a subjunctive, when an order is an order? A 'suggestion' might be phrased in that way: "the suggestion was that we should evacuate the area"; or "the suggestion was that we evacuate the area." The sentence as given sounds unnatural.

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Note added at 10 hrs (2007-01-11 16:41:35 GMT)
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My feeling is that if an order isn't an order, an unequivocal command, then the organisation issuing it isn't an army. I've heard the Israeli army is pretty democratic and the Canadian army spokespersons I hear talking about Afghanistan on the radio, at the level of generals and major generals, project a tearful sensitivity that suggests debate and discussion of orders is welcome and that any refusal to follow orders in the field would be met with counselling. Perhaps it depends on the historical period. If the text dates from a period where a refusal to follow orders furnished grounds for court-martial, the subjunctive is probably out of place. 'Should' is also possible if it's contained in the order -- for example, it might not be possible to evacuate the area, if resistance is too great, and so the order might simply say something like 'The unit shall attempt to break-out...' In this case the author, indirectly quoting the essence of the orders, might say that the orders were 'that we should evacuate the area'. And 'shall' in direct speech can be reported indirectly as 'should' as well...
Peer comment(s):

agree kmtext
22 mins
agree William [Bill] Gray : "had evacuated" in the original is definitely not acceptable; your comment about an order is well expressed.
41 mins
disagree David Moore (X) : To me, as a BENS, rephrasing is not necessary
2 hrs
agree Tony M : Although I think both Asker's suggestions are OK, I do prefer your version as better style; Bills comment that the original is NOT correct is important.
3 hrs
agree Vicky Papaprodromou
5 hrs
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