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remit
Feb 1, 2010 11:47
14 yrs ago
3 viewers *
English term

howling desert/howler

English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature Kipling
Rudyard Kipling's "How the Camel got his Hump" ( http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/167/ ) begins with a sentence using the verb "to howl" in two apparently idiomatic ways:

In the beginning of years, when the world was so new and all, and the Animals were just beginning to work for Man, there was a Camel, and he lived in the middle of a ***Howling Desert*** because he did not want to work; and besides, he was a ***Howler*** himself.

Are these two uses of "to howl" idiomatic? And what do they exactly mean?
Thanks you!
f
Responses
5 +3 Howler = mistake, blunder (here: something laughably awkward or ugly = the camel)
4 +3 a desert where you hear howling noises of both animals and the wind
5 desert full of the sounds of the wind/someone that makes a lot of 'oh' and 'ah'
4 play on words
4 the raging sand storm menacing sounds / growl, grunt and groan of a camel
2 a desolate desert/idle one
References
definition of "howler"

Discussion

Annett Kottek (X) Feb 2, 2010:
@ Jim Indeed. I just wanted to let it be known that I did re-read the text. :-)
Jim Tucker (X) Feb 2, 2010:
It's true, Annett, that the narrator says it first ....but as indicated below, that is not a problem -- he means that the camel with his hump is ridiculous -- and the result of a misunderstanding.
Annett Kottek (X) Feb 2, 2010:
Maybe we're reading different texts? The text I refer to (link given by asker above) has the horse speaking. If I may quote: 'Well,' ****said the Horse****, 'there's a thing in the middle of your Howling Desert (and he's a Howler himself) with a long neck and long legs, and he hasn't done a stroke of work since Monday morning. He won't trot.'

The word 'howling' is onomatopoeic, i.e. it is imitative of the sound of, say, a wolf or the wind. This, imo, disqualifies 'hhhhhumphhhhhhhhhhhhhh huhhhuuuummphhhh', or indeed anything with an 'mph' in it. ;-)
Alexandra Taggart Feb 2, 2010:
"Howler" is a beast we admire, but... Please, use your imagination and draw a picture of a devilishly wild camel : http://www.google.ru/imglanding?q=howler monkeys&imgurl=http...
Mirra_ Feb 2, 2010:
sorry Jim as I already said, I disagree with you :) and have another explanation for howler.
And don't worry too much about how much I can (get and) appreciate kipling. Please. I do even without your precious and - oh so clever - help. And from a long time. ;)) And I do it even more now that (I humbly guess ;) I understood why the camel is a howler.
Jim Tucker (X) Feb 2, 2010:
"Howler" as said by the author ...refers to the misunderstanding (of hrmph as "hump") that led to the camel's hump in the first place. The whole story rests on this misunderstanding. In this sense "howler" more precisely = "the end result of a blunder."
Don't take Kipling's best punch line away from him! This is good stuff!
Mirra_ Feb 2, 2010:
for Annette 1 howler refers to the way he speaks: hhhhhumphhhhhhhhhhhhhh huhhhuuuummphhhh
2 please re-read it! the description is made by the author/ the teller, not by the horse! :)
3 at the end he could be sad because he has become ugly and ridiculous due to the hump(h) on his back, but I said nothing about it! ;) Anyway one can guess he is - just a bit at least - since he was so proud of his former appearance... but only kipling really knows this for sure! (Ps. the camel could be stubborn and doesn't behave but he can still be sad as well for the lost of his wonderfully straight back!)
Mirra_ Feb 2, 2010:
for Jim this is your opinion, I already thoroughly explained why I completely disagree with it :)
(also note the cronological problem, see ref)
Jim Tucker (X) Feb 2, 2010:
Mirra, the idea behind this story is... ...that the camel is a funny-looking creature (howler); it explains how he got that way, which is another howler (mistake): a misunderstanding of his grunts.
Annett Kottek (X) Feb 2, 2010:
@ Mirra_ How would you explain his wailing? He's happy with the way he looks (proud of it) and he doesn't work, so what's to be sad about? 'Howling' surely cannot refer to the noise he makes, as Jim correctly points out, Kipling's camel says "hrmph". The horse's description of the camel occurs before he's made to work. Also, and as I said already, he doesn't sound too sad at the end of the story either, he's still stubborn.
Mirra_ Feb 2, 2010:
well, he does when he is asked to work!!! please re-read it! :)

And, also (as I explained - sorry for the Italian), he generally 'howls' because he's too lazy to speak properly since pronouncing words is much more complicate than just sighing ;)

also, he is very proud of his appearance as you correctly reported.

Furthermore, please note that the camel becomes ridiculous and "ugly" just as a consequence of the punishment: the 'hump(h)' put on his back.

Moreover, yes, the horse has the last laugh *just* for the punishment but the first belongs to the indolent camel!


poor lazy camel... :)
Annett Kottek (X) Feb 2, 2010:
The camel doesn't howl/cry/weep in this story - - he's got no reason to! He's lazy and vain, and the irony is that he's not even pretty (in the opinion of the horse). Why else say: ''there's a thing in the middle of your Howling Desert (and he's a Howler himself) with a long neck and long legs; 'found the Camel most 'scruciatingly idle, looking at his own reflection in a pool of water; 'his back, that he was so proud of'. Even though the camel is rather chuffed with himself, it's the horse that has the last laugh. The story closes to let us know that the camel still has not learned how to behave himself - - again, this does not sound like a creature that laments.

Responses

+3
13 hrs
Selected

Howler = mistake, blunder (here: something laughably awkward or ugly = the camel)

This camel in Kipling made is described by the horse as a "Howler" because he has a long neck and too-long legs, and a big fat hump on his back.

http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/167/

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Note added at 13 hrs (2010-02-02 01:15:54 GMT)
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omit "made"

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Note added at 13 hrs (2010-02-02 01:17:45 GMT)
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Especially in British English, a howler is a mistake so egregious that the person catching it howls with laughter. It is used to refer to a mistake in an examination, in literature, in film or television (also known as a blooper), or in sport (see, footballing mistake).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howler

In other words, "anything that makes you howl with laughter."
Peer comment(s):
neutral Stephanie Ezrol : I think it is a double entendre. Camels do make strange howling sounds. There is also the Mulsim story about the camel who cried. And the camel is a howler -- something you can howl at.
3 mins
The Horse is doing the talking; naturally the Camel looks ridiculous to him. The humor depends on the coincidence that the word also has a literal meaning -- but that is not the intended meaning here. Kipling's Camel says "hrmph" - he doesn't howl.
agree Annett Kottek (X) : A bit like saying 'and he's a scream'. Cf. howling. 3. fig. (chiefly slang.) Glaring, very pronounced, ‘screaming’ (OED).
6 hrs
agree Dylan Edwards : The funniest and most satisfying interpretation. I've read the "source text" and I think this is in keeping with the spirit of it.
7 hrs
neutral Mirra_ : I don't think so. IMO howler depends only on the howling noises that the camel makes being too lazy to speak properly. Indeed, 1-'himself a howler' is firstly said by the author 2-the camel laughs at the others ' attempt to make him work,not the contrary.
9 hrs
Could be, but it's not funny at all like that. I think Kipling is being clever.
agree John Detre : absolutely, a blunder by god
1 day 3 mins
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Jim, you've totally convinced me. Besides, using the semantic field of blunders/mistakes/errors, I'll be able to think of some funny translation. Thanks a lot to you, Dylan and everybody else :) f"
51 mins

a desolate desert/idle one

Regarding "howling desert" it is a phrase used in the deuteronomy 32:10, where the desert is empty and desolate.
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/deuteronomy/deuteronomy32.htm

Regarding howler, after reading the following section, I guess the camel was an idle animal who didn't want to do anything.

So he ate sticks and thorns and tamarisks and milkweed and prickles, most 'scruciating idle; and when anybody spoke to him he said 'Humph!' Just 'Humph!' and no more.
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2 hrs

desert full of the sounds of the wind/someone that makes a lot of 'oh' and 'ah'

ciao

scrivo in italiano che faccio prima.

Premetto che sono un'amante di Kipling e che la tua domanda mi ha molto incuriosita.
Allora, essenzialmente quella che ti propongo è solo una spiegazione approssimativa. Infatti, in questo contesto, niente è meglio di howling/howler per rendere il concetto che Kipling vuole esprimere.

Allora, è vero che la traduzione italiana (ahimé come molte terribili traduzioni italiane) riporta per howler, fannullone/che non ha voglia di lavorare.
ma questo si basa solo una *interpretazione* superficiale motivata da una lettura superficiale del racconto

Ma in realtà Kipling, oltra ad essere un po' moralista, è anche un uomo con un gran senso dell'ironia.

Il punto è che il cammello è un howler anche lui perché è talmente pigro che fa anche fatica a parlare!!! Infatti, si esprime solo con 'oh' ah' ;)
ovvero ohhhhhhhhh ahhhhhhhhh
da cui 'was an howler himself'
mi riesco a spiegare? :))

Quella che fa Kipling è solo una battuta!!!

infatti, per curiosità ho guardato la traduzione francese...
guarda un po' pure tu:
, il y avait un Chameau qui vivait au milieu d'un Désert Hurlant car il ne voulait pas travailler ; d'ailleurs c'était un Hurleur lui-même
http://kiplinginfrench.free.fr/HCC02.html
(anche se poi rovinano tutto facendo fare bof al cammello... ;)


spero di essermi riuscita a spiegare
e grazie per avermi dato modo di comprendere meglio questo raccontino! :)

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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-02-01 14:49:29 GMT)
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sorry. Would someone like to have explained it in English...? please ask! I'll answer with pleasure.
I just wrote my answer in Italian since the Asker is Italian and I am in a rush :o)
(anyway it seemed to me quite understandable even from not Italian readers, but I am not the right person entitled to judge this! ;)
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3 hrs

play on words

Although the previously posted dictionary entries of "howling" and "to howl" are both correct, I believe this is a play on words that only comes through in English. A "howling desert," while it certainly refers to a large sandy region where howling sounds *may* be heard, here could well mean a place that is desolate and wild. So, there could be dead silence and we can still call it a "howling desert" - see the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
Main Entry: howl·ing
Function: adjective
Date: 1599
1 : producing or marked by a sound resembling a howl <a howling storm>
2 : *desolate*, *wild* <a howling wilderness>

Synonyms of desolate: unused, barren
Synonyms of wild: untamed, uncultivated
Reference:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/howling

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10 hrs

the raging sand storm menacing sounds / growl, grunt and groan of a camel

The desert produces ghostly sounds of a variable timbre from mellow to harsh and they are frightening , especially during the raging storm.The camel growls, when it feels aggressive,( mainly it grunts).

http://www.soundscalpel.com/soundeffects/?q=bleat
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+3
1 hr

a desert where you hear howling noises of both animals and the wind

Howl and howling both have the same type of meaning. A person who howls is a person who makes noises as:

vb
1. to express in a howl or utter such cries
2. (intr) (of the wind, etc.) to make a wailing noise

n
1. a long plaintive cry or wail characteristic of a wolf or hound
2. a similar cry of pain or sorrow

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/howl

You can refer to a howling desert because a desert is often dominated by howling sounds, which if you have ever camped out in a desert you know can be quite frightening -- you will hear during the night those howling sounds of the animals and a similar sound of the wind which is like the howling of an animal.

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Note added at 1 hr (2010-02-01 13:08:29 GMT)
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In a desert the howling idea is also related to sandstorms caused by the strong unimpeded winds in the desert.

"The trees guard the people from the howling desert sandstorms."
http://storiestogrow.wordpress.com/2009/06/29/the-people-who...

The idea is in the bible, but I don't know if that is the origin in the English language. The King James version says it this way:

He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness;



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Note added at 10 hrs (2010-02-01 22:15:44 GMT)
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The joke is the camel which makes a noise which sounds like the plaintive cry of other animals deserved to live in the barren desert region where the blowing sand and the wind makes noises that sound like the cries (or howls) of animals.
Peer comment(s):
agree Jenny Westwell
1 hr
Thanks.
agree Paula Vaz-Carreiro
2 hrs
Thanks.
agree Veronika McLaren
9 hrs
Thank you Veronika.
neutral Jim Tucker (X) : "Howler" = "mistake", "blunder"; anything so ridiculous it makes you laugh. In Kipling the Horse is saying this of the Camel, who naturally looks ridiculous to him, as he explains.
12 hrs
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Reference comments

20 hrs
Reference:

definition of "howler"

"Howler" is a British word. Broadly speaking, a howler is a kind of blunder. A howler is like, but not exactly the same as, other members of the blunders family. The blunders family includes bloomers, bloopers, breaks, bulls, flubs, fluffs, gaffes, and similar words, each with a slightly different meaning. Compared to some other members of the blunders family, the word howler is quite young.
Howler, in the sense of a blunder, traces to the 19th century.1 For example, "howler" appears in a book review published in an early British periodical, the Athenaeum:2
"In no examination papers which it has been his evil fate to sit in judgment on has any examiner met with more monstrous 'howlers' than crowd these pages".
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a howler is "a glaring blunder". Australia's national dictionary, The Macquarie Dictionary, likewise defines a howler as "an especially glaring and ludicrous blunder". A blunder implies ignorance, carelessness, or stupidity; evidently, the word howler comes from the "howls" of laughter from those hearing the stupid mistake.3
"Howler" is a British word. Broadly speaking, a howler is a kind of blunder. A howler is like, but not exactly the same as, other members of the blunders family. The blunders family includes bloomers, bloopers, breaks, bulls, flubs, fluffs, gaffes, and similar words, each with a slightly different meaning. Compared to some other members of the blunders family, the word howler is quite young.
Howler, in the sense of a blunder, traces to the 19th century.1 For example, "howler" appears in a book review published in an early British periodical, the Athenaeum:2
"In no examination papers which it has been his evil fate to sit in judgment on has any examiner met with more monstrous 'howlers' than crowd these pages".
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a howler is "a glaring blunder". Australia's national dictionary, The Macquarie Dictionary, likewise defines a howler as "an especially glaring and ludicrous blunder". A blunder implies ignorance, carelessness, or stupidity; evidently, the word howler comes from the "howls" of laughter from those hearing the stupid mistake.3
http://www.funny-english-errors.com/component/content/articl...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Mirra_ : thank you very much! I searched for it but I wasn't able to find it! Indeed, I supposed that this meaning of 'howler' was pretty recent and couldn't be applied to a tale firstly published in 1898!! :) http://www.kipling.org.uk/rg_camelhump1.htm
5 hrs
agree Jim Tucker (X) : Of course. All translators should know this, as the word is commonly used of egregiously mistranslated phrases. (@ Mirra.... 1898 is the end of the 19th century -- not the "novecento".)
6 hrs
agree Annett Kottek (X) : First entry for 'howler' in sense of 'a glaring blunder' recorded in the OED in 1872. Another example: 1882 H. C. MERIVALE Faucit of B. II. II. ii. 161 He's gone no end of a howler on the turf since.'
7 hrs
Just what I wanted to find, the first recorded use of 'howler' in this sense. Thank you.
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