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cluster study manager
Feb 5, 2010 08:33
14 yrs ago
3 viewers *
English term

Present Perfect Tense - Negative in Question

English Other Linguistics Grammar
Which of the two sentences below is more correct:

1. Since when haven't you seen Bess?
2. Since when have you not seen Bess?

Or... are they both correct?

Thank you in advance.
Responses
4 The problem here is not present perfect but sentence order.
4 +5 how long has it been since you've seen Bess?
4 +1 both are correct
4 both are correct
3 +1 How long ago did you last see Bess?
References
Both sound terrible
Since when haven't you ...
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Melzie

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Discussion

Sterk (asker) Feb 10, 2010:
4. and finally: there's nothing wrong with either of the present perfect negative formulations - "haven't you" vs. "have you not", though it is confusing that in the contracted form the 'not' comes before the 'you' and in the fully written out form it is the other way round (Craig Meulen).
Thanks a lot. It has been my best grammar lesson since I graduated from the university!
Sterk (asker) Feb 10, 2010:
Thank you all for such an active participation. Actually, asking my question, as Craig Meulen correctly suggests, I was only concerned with such a little thing as the change in the place of 'you' and 'not' in the contracted and not contracted form. But rather than a short and simple answer I've got a whole discussion involving various aspects of grammar, culture and geographical usage. Anyway, I am now more or less clear about at least a few things such as:

1. "Since when" in such a sentence like "Since when haven't you seen Bess" would not be of a prevalent usage, to say the least, and "How long has it been since you've seen Bess?" (Kathryn Davies) or "When did you last see Bess?" (Dylan Edwards, Christine Andersen) would sound far more natural;

2. "Since when..." is used (idiomatically) to express ridicule or incredulity (Dylan Edwards);

3. There's nothing wrong with using present perfect twice for such questions (Kathryn Davies, Lucinda), which is also confirmed by Google search (How long has it been since you saw your best friend? How long has it been since you have been in a movie theatre? etc.);
(to be continued)
Rachel Fell Feb 6, 2010:
I'm afraid... it depends on context and intonation and so on, as both are possible if not very common.
Dylan Edwards Feb 6, 2010:
With Kathryn's examples, there's plenty to mull over, but I think one other version is worth mentioning, for the sake of completeness:
It's a long time since I had pasta.

Compare this with:
I haven't had pasta for a long time.
Sterk (asker) Feb 6, 2010:
Thank you for your intervention Kathryn. I need now to digest everything discussed, and also do some Internet surfing to supplement it with more examples. This is just for my own understanding, rather than for the sake of translation -- (luckily) I don't have to deal with such grammar issues in my daily translation practice. You therefore are in no way late with your comments and thanks a lot again.
kathryn davies Feb 6, 2010:
Sorry I'm so late responding to this, I was offline yesterday with connection problems! I think it is possible to use either form, depending on your emphasis. This explains it well:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/le...

Q: I am eating pasta again after a long time:

It's been a long time since I had pasta.
Or is this better?

It's been a long time since I have had pasta.
A: Both of these examples are perfectly correct. If you use the simple past tense, since I had pasta, you are thinking at that moment of the last time you ate it. If you use the present perfect tense, since I have had pasta, you are thinking of the gap in time since you last ate it.

I went for the second because it's what I would naturally use, but you need to decide if the emphasis is on the amount of time that has passed since the occasion, or on the actual occasion itself, in which case Dylan's "When did you last see Bess?" would be correct, and more concise.
Again, sorry for the delay, hope this is in time to help you with your translation!
Dylan Edwards Feb 5, 2010:
I'm afraid it's also a question that invites a silly answer: "Since the last time I saw her."
Dylan Edwards Feb 5, 2010:
They are equally correct, but I say "correct" reluctantly, because I don't like either.
"When did you last see Bess?" sounds far more natural.
I also have a difficulty with "Since when ...", because it's used (idiomatically) to express ridicule or incredulity: Since when? Says who?

Responses

6 hrs
Selected

The problem here is not present perfect but sentence order.

There's nothing wrong with either of the present perfect negative formulations - yes, it is confusing that in the contracted form the 'not' comes before the 'you' and in the fully written out form it is the other way round. But that's correct. For example:
"Haven't you seen Suzie since the party?"
"Have you not seen Suzie since the party?"

The problem with the asker's two examples is imho something different: English's somewhat idiosyncratic use of prepositions in questions. In some languages, [preposition]+[question word], for example, X"For what did you come here?" would be good structure, since in a normal sentence 'for' is followed by [reason]. But English requires the preposition to disappear off to the end "What did you come here for?"

(Exceptions occur in formal English, which often allows such structure.)

If we imagine the answer to the question, it could be
"I haven't seen Suzie since [January / 1988 / we went to Italy together]."
But in the question we can't use [preposition]+[question word]

We could try putting the preposition word to the end
X"When haven't you seen Suzie since?"
but that doesn't work here either (! I can't explain that one ... English is grammar not always good with reasons!)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Although your comment kept somewhat away from the main course of discussion, it was actually the answer to the point at issue. Anyway, the discussion has been most interesting and useful for me (please see also the discussion), and my thanks to all the participants. "
2 mins

both are correct

... but I prefer the second for clarity. Just my humble opinion.
Something went wrong...
+1
4 mins

both are correct

and I prefer the first one. I think it's matter of preference and the difference between BE and AE.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Craig Meulen : Nothing do to with BE/AE, imho. Just a complicated example of using contractions or not, which is more often to do with the level of formality required.
6 hrs
agree Jim Tucker (X) : Agree with the others that it's not a prevalent usage, but I say this kind of thing all the time (native speaker, New York); Doubt it's BE/AE.
1 day 3 hrs
Thank you Jim.
Something went wrong...
+5
28 mins

how long has it been since you've seen Bess?

I think it would probably be better expressed this way..
Note from asker:
Thank you for your contribution. But.. are you sure about using Perfect tense twice? Shouldn't it be "...since you saw Bess?"
Peer comment(s):
agree Melanie Nassar : I think so too, at least in this particular case
8 mins
thanks melanie :)
agree Henry Schroeder : This is not the answer to the question, but I completely agree! I can't think of anyone in the U.S. (NY) who has said "since when..."
17 mins
thanks henry :)
agree Patricia Townshend (X)
1 hr
thanks patricia :)
agree Lucinda Hollenberg : Dear Sterk, the use of the simple past (saw) would not be ccorrect here. The simple past is triggered by one action which is started and completed in the past. That is not the case in Kathryn's sentence..
3 hrs
thanks lucinda :)
agree Rolf Keiser
5 hrs
thanks goldcoaster :)
agree patyjs
5 hrs
thanks patyjs :)
disagree Craig Meulen : Slightly less ugly than the original. But double usage of pres. perf. here is questionable. As a time preposition, since is usually followed by a 'point in time': 'since 1988', 'since the war', 'since the end of xx', & 'since I saw Bess' (past simple).
6 hrs
thanks for that info, but I think you can use either depending on your focus.
agree cmwilliams (X) : This is correct, at least for BE.
10 hrs
thanks cmwilliams:)
neutral Tina Vonhof (X) : Agree with Craig and with asker: 'since you saw Bess'.
10 hrs
I think you can use either, depending.
disagree Polangmar : since you (last) saw Bess: http://tinyurl.com/yacu3rm
15 hrs
I don't think that google list using "since you saw" really demonstrates anything?
Something went wrong...
+1
1 day 4 hrs

How long ago did you last see Bess?

... is another option, if you want to know the length of time precisely.

I personally might also say:
When did you last see Bess?

This might get an answer like:
Oh, two or three weeks ago. (or last month, last year or perhaps the date, if it was memorable).

Alternatively,
When exactly did you last see Bess?

As Dylan points out, the two expressions you suggest sound a little ironic or incredulous.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tina Vonhof (X) : Good options.
2 hrs
neutral Rachel Fell : How long ago did you last see Bess? seems tautologous and we wouldn't say it like that, but normally as When did you last see... instead; and rather than "incredulous", perhaps full of incredulity (incredulous has to be of a person, I think)
4 hrs
How long ago did you FIRST see Bess :-? I don't see the tautology. But I was only referring to English as she is spoke in my personal neck of the woods. I do find ´Since when...´ a little incredulous. But with no Academie Anglaise or final authority...
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

5 mins
Reference:

Both sound terrible

I would reformulate your question.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 44 mins (2010-02-05 09:18:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Exactly as Kathryn Davies did at the 28 minute mark!!!!
Note from asker:
So what would sound good in your world, Mr. Reformulator?
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral Shera Lyn Parpia : It does depend on what the context is - it could be perfectly suitable as a response to someone saying "I haven't seen Bess"
10 mins
Maybe in your world, but not in mine (U.S., New York).
agree Lucinda Hollenberg : I agree with Henry; both are awkward. However, the present perfect tense is fine in both sentences. The contracted form *haven't* is less formal. I would have used Kathryn's reply.
2 hrs
agree Craig Meulen : They're both technically possible but ugly! So in practice they wouldn't be used, imho. Although in speech some 'ugly' constructions do end up being used when the speaker starts saying something without thinking it through to the end!
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
10 hrs
Reference:

Since when haven't you ...

This turn of phrase seems most at home in situations where someone is expressing surprise, for example surprise at the possibility of someone not liking or not enjoying something:

Since when haven't you enjoyed a little challenge?

Since when haven't you liked fish and chips? etc. etc.

This is obviously colloquial, and "since when have you not" would sound too stilted.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree oberonsghost (X) : or expressing sarcasm...
6 hrs
Yes, sarcasm too - it certainly depends on the context.
agree Rachel Fell : yes, for the Asker's sentences, though I do think you could say "Since when have you NOT enjoyed fish and chips?" in a situation where the eater was an enthusiastic and regular partaker of same!
1 day 1 hr
That's true, the emphasis could be there. Have you not / haven't you is also a north/south thing in British English: up north, they say "have you not" instead of "haven't you".
agree Stephanie Ezrol
4 days
Thanks, Stephanie.
Something went wrong...
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