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Vous êtes dans la vérité, monsieur.
aux deux tiers
Apr 2, 2013 09:28
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

"être au final de"

Non-PRO French to English Other Wine / Oenology / Viticulture statistics in vintage report
...les opérations d’effeuillage et d’éclaircissage permettent d’assurer une maturité optimale, tout en préservant un bon état sanitaire de manière plus durable. Le rendement agronomique > 45hl/ha.

----

Hi,

I'm pretty sure this doesn't mean "In the end, the agronomic yield was..." but am stumped for a logical alternative interpretation.

If I take a while getting back to any suggestions, it won't be through ingratitude, but because Hotmail is down - again!

But thanks in advance for any help!
Proposed translations (English)
3 at the end of the day, ... was x
4 +1 was ultimately
References
http://www.armand-colin.com/revues_artic...
Change log

Apr 2, 2013 10:58: Victoria Britten changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): Nikki Scott-Despaigne, Tony M, Victoria Britten

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

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Discussion

Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 3, 2013:
Sorry Tony! I always thought that points weren't awarded for non-pro questions - or at least, that they don't count in any tables.

And I definitely won't just close the question if this would be seen in any way as rude or a slap in anyone's face - that was definitely NOT my intention. If anything, it would have been a slap in my own face for asking what turned out to be a pointless question!
Tony M Apr 3, 2013:
@ Carol 1) Just because it is non-pro doesn't mean you can't award points
2) Making a glossary entry isn't obligatory, though even a well-known term might at some point be helpful to a future user
3) 'Just closing' a question always seems a bit rude to me, a slap in the face to those people who've taken the time and trouble to contribute to your question and try to help; other than in the case where there really is no acceptable answer, of course. Here, you have two perfectly good answers to choose from, and I for one think it would be churlish not to at least choose one of them (preferably Charlotte's, so as not to be accused of self-promotion!)
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 3, 2013:
PS I hope nobody would object if I simply "Closed" this question. Partly because I wouldn't want to gloss "être au final de", which as it turns out is nonsense; and partly because everybody already knows "au final", which certainly doesn't warrant a glossary entry - or anything new said about it whatsoever. Ever!
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 3, 2013:
grading will be difficult, as I'd dearly loved to have awarded the "points" to Nikki, for all her help and patience!

However, now that the question has - quite rightly, as it happens - been downgraded to Non-Pro, there won't be any points anyway. A pity in a way, as, regardless of the fact that this turned out to be more simple than I at first thought, it did require quite a bit of help to finally put me on the right track, and explain in nice clear terms what was in fact blindingly obvious! It's just a pity that such help has to go unrewarded :(

But thanks to all, anyway!
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 2, 2013:
thanks 1045 The problem as I saw it at the time was "au final DE". I now see the error of my ways, thanks mainly to Nikki :)
Jean-Claude Gouin Apr 2, 2013:
au final http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/au final.h...
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Apr 2, 2013:
Lucky shot. It happens to us all. We stare at something and just don't see it. I call it the crossword syndrome : don't you find it really easy to see the answers to other peoples' crosswords? The same clue in the same grid without looking over someone's shoulder is just so much harder! ;-)
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 2, 2013:
sorry everybody! If I'd realised this was just about "au final" and not "au final de", I would never have posted the question!

But thanks to everybody, and especially to Nikki for her patient and clear explanations!
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 2, 2013:
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Nikki! Thanks again!

Regarding the punctuation, the client did use the expression "au final, " (with the comma) elsewhere, which is in part why this term confused me!
Tony M Apr 2, 2013:
@ Asker As Nikki says, if you take the 'au final' out of the question, then in all your examples, you get something along the lines of 'le ... est de x', which is absolutely bog-standard everyday FR. I think it was the incorrect parsing that must have confused you in the first place ;-)
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Apr 2, 2013:
Idem with "au final, le rendement est de XXX..." with a Google search. The "au final" can and should be isolated. It can be set in a number of places in the sentence. The writer has simply written as he no doubt speaks.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Apr 2, 2013:
Try a quick Google search with "le rendement est de" and you will find a number of scientific sources which use the phrase that way, followed by a number, a percentage a unit of measurement.
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 2, 2013:
Thanks Nikki! Re What is the "de" doing there?

Now that makes it clearer, and even sounds logical :)
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Apr 2, 2013:
And don't be too worried about the fact that it is often used in a chipped 'n' chopped sentence, without any punctuation for guidance. It is indeed one of those irritating short expressions which is, according to many, an example of sloppy French. There are a number of forums where people who care about language, have asked the question about this very expression. "Au final" is one of my pet hates, as is "à la base". I could go on!
As for being pedantic, I think it's a fine quality in a writer and in a translator. ;-)
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 2, 2013:
Not "au final" but "au final de" Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear in the term what I was looking for, but obviously not!

The term (I think!) I'm looking for is "au final de" and not just "au final", which of course would have been perfectly clear, as expressed earlier in the text (above)
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Apr 2, 2013:
What is the "de" doing there? It's the link to the expression of quantity, size, measurement etc.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Apr 2, 2013:
@Carol Yes, your question is about the expression "au final". It is not "au final de", nor is it "être au final de".
Read the sentence without "au final":
"Le rendement agronomique est de 45hl/ha".
Clearer now?
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 2, 2013:
OK, thanks Nikki! But what then is that "de" doing there?
I hope I'm not being over being pedantic! But I had assumed that it was a part of the term in question, and it does appear to be so in the other Google examples I found. But I'll have another look at them and see if they could also be translated as "ultimately" or a synonym.

Obviously, my first thought had been along the lines of "in the end", but it was that "de" that has thrown me.
Tony M Apr 2, 2013:
@ Asker Yes, of course, when talking specifically about a wine, it refers to 'the finish' — but that clearly can't apply when talking about yields etc.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Apr 2, 2013:
Carole, there is no mystery to the meaning of this one.
If you read it with some punctuation, then you'll no doubt agree:
"Le rendement agronomique est, au final, de 45hl/ha."
It's just a very French way of chopping up and inserting the bits 'n' bobs of the whole!
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 2, 2013:
well, maybe you're right but they do use it in that sense earlier in the text, and here, the meaning is quite clear (no problems!):

Les vendanges commencent le 2 octobre avec les merlots et se terminent le 14 octobre avec les cabernets, juste avant les pluies. Au final, ce vin rouge complexe, est riche en composés phénoliques.

---

this is partly what is confusing me, and the fact that the expression I'm trying to translate seems to be "au final de", and not just "au final"
Tony M Apr 2, 2013:
@ Asker I don't see why not; seems to me perfectly logical in both instances, even though it is to some extent only padding, as Liz has pointed out below.
Carol Gullidge (asker) Apr 2, 2013:
some more examples of similar usage found on Google. These don't really square with the "in the end/ultimately" theory, as far as I can see:

Carnets de dégustations - Accueil
www.degustateurs.com/ - France - Translate this page20 hours ago – C'est au final de belle facture pour ce millésime avec peu (au nez), pas (en bouche) de notes aromatiques du millésime. Bien et très très bel ...
Galaga '88 - Wikipédia
fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaga_'88 - Translate this pageL'objectif du joueur est au final de bien assimiler le comportement de chacun et d'éliminer en priorité ceux qu'il estime être les plus dangereux avant qu'ils ne ...
Maj : explications financières inside - Tout augmente ... Les prix des ...

www.iphon.fr/.../augmentation-prix-app-sto... - Translate this pageOct 25, 2012 – l'augmentation pour la zone euro (et deux autres pays) du prix des applications est au final de 12 % sur la plupart des paliers de prix, moindre ...

---

and of course, this has nothing to do with "le final" - the finish of the wine :)
Wendy Streitparth Apr 2, 2013:
If you want to include it, you could say "as a result".
liz cencetti (X) Apr 2, 2013:
Doesn't really need translating You could say something like "the total yield is", but it doesn't mean any more than that.

Proposed translations

36 mins
French term (edited): être au final de x
Selected

at the end of the day, ... was x

It's vital to aprse this with the following value, otherwise it is pretty meaningless.

Much as I hate using such clichés, it may well turn out to be the best solution in this instance.

You might also try something like: "In the end, ..." or "...ended up being ..." or simply "the final... was..."

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Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-02 10:45:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Absolutely no doubt about it, Carol! ;-)

I'm sure you must be familiar with common expressions like: 'le taux d'intérêt est de x %' etc. etc.
Note from asker:
Thanks Tony - maybe I was barking up the wrong tree "... au final de" and it really is this simple after all.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Tony, and everyone! Actually, it was Nikki who was the most helpful (as well as gracious!), but I can't award her the points! And, as I said before, if I hadn't been so blind, I would have never posted the question - making this, in my eyes, an erroneous question. If you don't mind, I'd rather it was NOT entered into any Glossaries - that would be quite pointless, and would vindicate my original intention to "Just close" this question. Many thanks!"
+1
26 mins

was ultimately

I think something simple would be best, in this case.
Note from asker:
Thanks Charlotte - perhaps it is this simple after all!
Peer comment(s):
agree Elizabeth Slaney
27 mins
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

50 mins
Reference:

http://www.armand-colin.com/revues_article_info.php?idr=20&i...

SCHNEDECKER Catherine
« À la fin », « in fine », « au final » : qu'est-ce qui fait la différence, finalement ?(pages 111 à 127)

Cet article décrit les deux expressions in fine et au final – en contrepoint avec à la fin – et essaie de montrer en quoi la première, très ancienne, et la seconde, beaucoup plus récente, se rapprochent et se distinguent au plan morphosémantique (question du figement), syntaxiques (emplois en tant qu’adverbiaux verbaux vs d’énoncé) et discursif (genres d’occurrence et distribution) pour faire des hypothèses sur leurs valeurs sémantiques. In fine semble ainsi spécialisé, selon ses fonctions syntaxiques, dans l’expression d’une temporalité virtuelle « trouée » ou dans le contraste alors qu’au final marque une temporalité sériée et, au niveau du discours, signale que le locuteur dresse un bilan quantitatif ou qualitatif.

Mots clés : marqueurs discursifs, adverbiaux verbaux, adverbiaux d’énoncé, temporalité, contraste, évaluation, au final, in fine

This article describes the two expressions in fine and au final in counterpoint with à la fin and tries to show in what the first, very old, and the second, much more recent, are share properties at the morphosemantic (question of frozen process), syntactic and discursive (kinds of discursive genres of occurrence and distribution) levels. We hypothesize then that in fine seems thus specialized, according to its syntactic functions, in the expression of a virtual temporality or of contrast whereas au final marks a serial temporality and announces that the speaker proceeds to a quantitative or qualitative assessment.

Keywords : discursive markers, adverbials, temporality, contrast, evaluation

Article complet
fichier PDF - 315.48 Ko

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Note added at 53 mins (2013-04-02 10:22:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://forum.ubuntu-fr.org/viewtopic.php?id=313321
Note from asker:
thanks Nikki! But it's not "au final" that I'm looking for, but "au final de"
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Tony M : Of course this is exactly it! And in many ways, it is just as much of an unwelcome cliché as 'at the end of the day' in EN
27 mins
Something went wrong...
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