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odonris
Oct 12, 2013 15:41
10 yrs ago
Swedish term

Brändön Fiskehamn

Swedish to English Other Tourism & Travel Translating the names of Swedish harbours
Good afternoon,

This is a bit of a random question, so please bear with me. I am currently proofreading some work (tourism-related in English) for a Finnish colleague who has some dilemmas on how to translate the names of Swedish harbours into English. I do not know any Swedish and therefore have no idea about Swedish naming conventions.

If the above term were to be translated as Brändön Fishing Harbour (which seems perfectly acceptable to me), would that be OK? My colleague has mentioned the Swedish 'definite form' and feels that perhaps it needs to be changed to Brändön's Fishing Harbour or, in another example, the Small-Boat Harbour at Brändön. The latter options seem a bit unwieldy to me but I want to get it right for my colleague. How should I approach the naming these entities? It crops up with several other facilities of a similar nature too.

Some rather unproductive googling confirms my preference so far, but I do not want my preference to overrule what is right.

Thank you for your help!

Kind regards,

Sara
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 Brändön Fishing Harbour
5 +1 Brändön Fiskehamn / Brändön Fishing Harbour
5 Brändön Fiskehamn (roughly, Fire Island Fishing Harbour)
5 Brändön Harbour
4 Brändö fiskehamn
5 -1 Brändö fishing harbour/The harbour of Brändö

Discussion

Mats Wiman Oct 14, 2013:
@George Hopkins Thanks George for enccouraging words. My perception wasn't exactly very youthful this time.
Charlesp Oct 14, 2013:
Re Lillian I thought Lillian was a reference to a character in Becket's play.
George Hopkins Oct 14, 2013:
Dear Mats, You are not mad and you are not old. You have many years to live before reaching your best before date. Keep smiling.
Deane Goltermann Oct 14, 2013:
@ Burnt Island Michael, Good one. I'll get my clubs ready!
Mats Wiman Oct 14, 2013:
LILIAN I ask you all to forgive my lack of perception (I have already privately asked Lilian to forgive me). I am not mad, only old and less perceptive. I am also a victim of a not so positive phenomenon from time immemorial at ProZ.com: A participant behind e.g. a ProZ.com name of 'Doublecheck' is IRL 'Lilian Smith' and insiders constantly refer to her as "Lilian" instead of 'Doublecheck'.
Michael Ellis Oct 14, 2013:
Burntisland Deane, just to add to the joy of this lively discussion, did you know there is fishing harbour called Burntisland in Scotland? It is however better known for its golf.
SafeTex Oct 14, 2013:
@Mats Lilian made a comment for Deane's entry

The full name is LilianBNekipelo with a link to profile as with all of us

She is going to think we are all mad if we continue like this :)
Mats Wiman Oct 14, 2013:
Lilian Again.
I have welcomed some 80 newcomers in the last 12 months and I do not remember all the names and the eMail columns do not contain any name
Nevertheless I do not understand how everybody refers to Lilian as if it was a household name and yet no comment, agree or answer by her is visible in this Brändön thread.
All of you who seem to know better, please enlighten me: Who is Lilian?
SafeTex Oct 14, 2013:
Hello and Welcome to Lillian Hello

We have ended up speaking of you Lillian as if you are not 'present'.
I don't think this was intentional but it now seems a bit rude. I'm sure that wasn't the intention but someone could not find your entry.

So welcome to the group where we do try to help each other and sometimes, if a suggestion gets a 'negative' comment or two, it is more to help the asker than anything else or to highlight a potential problem in that comment.

It isn't to shoot down others but it can unfortunately seem like that to newcomers.

So welcome

SafeTex
George Hopkins Oct 14, 2013:
Who is Lilian? The answer Mats is LilianBNekipelo, who agreed with Deane's suggested answer. That's all I know.
Anna Herbst Oct 14, 2013:
@Mats re. Lilian Är det inte en av moderatorns uppgifter att välkomna nya medlemmar i språkgemenskapen?
Mats Wiman Oct 13, 2013:
@SafeTex
Thanks but the question remains: Who is Lilian?
SafeTex Oct 13, 2013:
@Mats Lillian made a comment to Deane's suggestion and it is that comment that George and then me responded to.
Hope that helps
Regards
Charlesp Oct 13, 2013:
Brändön and Örarna are two old fishing villages Here are some pictures, and more detailed information on Brändön:
http://www.swedishlapland.com/en/Bottenvikens-skargard/Kusts...
Charlesp Oct 13, 2013:
Dear Sara, As one who contributes quite a bit, and almost never askes questions herself, I suppose that you never expected such a response from the Proz community. (Perhaps it was due to the fact that it was a weekend, and people had time on their hands.)

It's a bit funny, actually.

But I am writing here to stress my opinion that there are many different possibilities, including referring to it as a small boat fishing harbour - and that it all depends upon context. The particular document, who the target audience is, whom the "publisher" is (i.e. who is putting out the document), and the style of the writer (as well as translator).
Anna Herbst Oct 13, 2013:
@ George I'm afraid you and Deane both may come unstuck if you stick with such fallacies...
Mats Wiman Oct 13, 2013:
Who is Lilian? and where is her comment?
George Hopkins Oct 13, 2013:
Anna A translation of Limhamn that might stick would be Glue Harbour.
Anna Herbst Oct 13, 2013:
Ortsnamnsetymologi @ Deane, I am fascinated by the etymology of place names as well, and here in Australia we have lots of interesting names. I live in the Dandenong Ranges (Woiwurrung language for "lofty mountains") in a community called Kalorama (Greek for "good view") which looks out over Silvan Dam (Latin for "of the wood/forest"). Nice to know, absolutely, but do I necessarily translate it to non-speakers of the languages in question? Absolutely not.

By the way, as a former resident of Malmö, Limhamn would be "Lime Harbour" in English. There is an old lime quarry close by, and Linné called it Kalkhamn. Read all about it at http://runeberg.org/svetym/0498.html
Eva Petersson Oct 13, 2013:
Insert symbols None of the Swedish letters should cause problems, since they can all be found among other alphabets under Infoga symbol (insert symbol) on your computer.
SafeTex Oct 13, 2013:
Re Lillian's and George's comment Hello

I have to go along with George here.
As I said, place names have to be transcribed or translated if in a different alphabet.
But although English does not contain ä, å, ö, I think that these letters can be reproduced in an English translation.
If you don't, there are two dangers
1 Try typing out a few Swedish place names while replacing ä, å, ö with a, a and o and see the choas it creates in Google maps. You'll find yourself in the wrong village and even country.
Imagine this in a Swedish tourist guide !

2 In some cases, Swedish names would lose all their meaning or undergo a change of meaning. Mönsterås would become Monsteras which is not far from 'The Monster Race'

If you start changing vowels in English, you do so at great risk. Why do it in Swedish?
Eva Petersson Oct 13, 2013:
Brändö vs Brändön? cf Dalarö, Öckerö but Frösön! On second thoughts: it could be BrändöN - like Frösön! But then I suggest either Brändön's (fishing) harbour OR the (fishing) harbour of Brändön.
Deane Goltermann Oct 13, 2013:
The curious tourist ... Having grown up in an area with names like Parsippany, Passaic, Hackensack, Rahway, and Hoboken, all with an original meaning that is now seemingly lost to the world, I like to see the background to why locals name their places as they do, when out and about (anyone care to explain Truro?). So a (rough) or (literal) translation should be ok in limited circumstances like this, IMHO. But it should be said only once...
George Hopkins Oct 12, 2013:
Re Lilian's comment There are no diacritics. The Swedish alphabet has three 'special' letters at the end, ie, ä, å, ö.

Proposed translations

+2
5 hrs
Selected

Brändön Fishing Harbour

Hello

Although place names are not normally translated, at least if both languages have the same alphabet, I don't feel that Brändön fiskehamn is a name after looking at Internet.
You would translate Brändön Church or Brändön Marshes or Brändön Football Stadium and there is no reason to do any different here.
This is not the same as 'Pearl Harbour' which is a geographical location and where 'Pearl' is not the name of a town.
Peer comment(s):
agree Anna Herbst : Good explanation and another good way of dealing with this question.
3 hrs
agree Mats Wiman : After googling 'Brändön'
14 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
2 hrs

Brändön Fiskehamn / Brändön Fishing Harbour

I agree with Deanne, but I am still going to make my suggestion.

I would give it two names, the name it is known by and a name in English that tourists would understand.

Of course not Fire Island Fishing Harbour - Brändön is a proper name (the name of a nearby city, which may not actually be a translation for "Fire Island," or even the name of a person).

But a tourist has gotta know that it is a fishing harbour. So I say, "make up" a name, and then others will adopt it. Especially if the end client is the tourist bureau of Bottenviken or Lulea.


Brändön Fiskehamn / Brändön Fishing Harbour
Peer comment(s):
agree Anna Herbst : This is clearly the way to go. Never translate a name, but clarify what it is - cf. SafeTex's answer.
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
13 mins

Brändön Fiskehamn (roughly, Fire Island Fishing Harbour)

I can't resist this... but the standard is to not translate place names, or else you would get the often mentioned 'Glue Harbour' for the actual town of Limnhamn. For colour you can add the rough translation (that has no official meaning) the first instance the name appears, but to use the Swe name thereafter.

Then there are the exceptions like Gothenburg, -- Stockholm is known but would translate to 'Stock Isle' or similar -- have you ever heard of that place? ;-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-10-12 19:44:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hmm, since we think the name shouldn't be translated this is not really important, but ... it is roughly Burnt Island to be picky here...
Note from asker:
Hi Deane, thank you, you are quite right! These bits are just for a bit of colour or illumination, as it were, and apply not to the actual placename but more to the nature of the facility at that place. Otherwise, the standard has been adhered to. :)
Peer comment(s):
agree LilianNekipelov : Yes, I agree it should not be translated at all. If worse came to worse just spell it without the diacritics.
20 mins
Thanks, Lilian!
neutral Charlesp : After giving some thought to it, and considering all of these (humerous and otherwise) comments in the discussion, I don't think this could be called "Fire Island Fishing Harbour," even if Brändön is an island (even though it is connected to the mainland)
1 hr
Thanks, Charles! Well, I already changed the idea to 'Burnt Island', but responded to Mats that it is the principal that is important here and that the actual place name is for the locals to decide on.
neutral Anna Herbst : Never make up new translations of place names. "Hon har flyttat från Norra huvudstaden i Mittens rike och bor nu i Änglarna och satsar på att göra karriär i Järneksskogen."
13 hrs
Which is, of course, why I use 'roughly' and suggest it only to add colour to a light piece of tourist info. In other places you most often see (literally, ...), but for me this presumes too much.
disagree Mats Wiman : The etymology of 'Brändön' probably has nothing to do with fire.
22 hrs
Possibly, but that's for the locals to deal with, it's the principle of the thing here. I changed my answer to 'burnt', and well, another possibility requires fire to heat up the mash ....
Something went wrong...
6 hrs

Brändö fiskehamn

I have never seen the definite form (ön) in names like this. I suggest that you keep Brändö and also fiskehamn, but not capitalize it.
Peer comment(s):
agree Mats Wiman : Fel språk och fel land.
1 hr
disagree Charlesp : why would you change the spelling of the place? -- As Mats suggested, "fel språk och fel land" -- and that is what makes it wrong (kinda obvious). As to why Mats would say 'agree' when he clearly disagrees, - you'd have to ask him.
5 hrs
Regarding the spelling, I first got the impression that the name was Brändö, not Brändön, and that the n just marked the definite form, which I did not like ...
Something went wrong...
-1
8 hrs
Swedish term (edited): Brändö Fiskehamn

Brändö fishing harbour/The harbour of Brändö

The name of the place is Brändö, NOT 'Brändön'(the Brändö).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Anna Herbst : Brändö is a place in Finland and Brändön is a place in Sweden - are you sure the question is regarding the Finnish location even though it indicates the name of the Swedish village?
1 hr
Sorry, I did not notice and I believed it was a gramamr errror.
disagree Charlesp : Sorry, but I don't think so. ///What's wrong you ask. As you yourself state, "Fel språk och fel land."
4 hrs
What is wrong? "Brändö fishing harbour/The harbour of Brändö" i hardly the wrong language". It is the wrong country though.
Something went wrong...
18 hrs

Brändön Harbour

I agree with all those previous contributors that one should not attempt to translate Brändön for all the good reasons quoted.
I prefer 'Harbour' to 'Fishing Harbour' as the latter does not sound English - indeed it is tending to Swinglish. If one googles 'fishing harbour' , all the many fishing port names are Newquay Harbour, Aberaeon Harbour, etc. There are one or two 'fishing harbour' sites, but examination shows they soon drop the 'fishing' in the text.
Reference:

http://www.newquay-harbour.com/

http://www.scrabster.co.uk

Peer comment(s):
neutral Anna Herbst : If that is the case, why would the Collins Dictionary bother with an entry for "fishing harbour"? http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fishing-... // Coffs Harbour is the name of a city, so it would have to be the Coffs Harbour harbour.
3 hrs
The point I was making is that Brändön Fishing ˙arbour sounds wrong in English. As an Australian, try saying Coffs Fishing Harbour and it will sound just as wrong despite Coffs Harbour's busy fiashing business.
neutral Charlesp : Not wrong, but why drop 'fishing'? There is a difference, a big difference actually, between an ordinary harbour and a fishing harbour. True "fishing" is often left off the name, that is what it is known by in Swedish, so why "re-write the book"?
6 hrs
see above - it's not vital, just style. Leave fishing in if it is being compared to a Brändön Yacht Marina, for example.
Something went wrong...
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