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Módulo: Plástica Escénica
Física moderna y ondas
Feb 6, 2015 21:26
9 yrs ago
11 viewers *
Spanish term

mujer casada vs. señora

Spanish to English Social Sciences History
I'm working on an academic translation in the field of history. In the context of women's education in the late 19th century Mexico, the text seems to make a distinction between "mujeres casadas" and "señoras".

Aquí es preciso una acotación importante, [la Escuela de Medicina, programa para comadronas] solo admitían a mujeres casadas, señoras o viudas.

and just below, discussing the first School of Nursing in Mexico:

El decreto correspondiente definió una preferencia de admitir a señoritas o viudas sin hijos y excepcionalmente “señoras, viudas con hijos, o casadas con o sin hijos”
Proposed translations (English)
4 married woman - older woman
4 married lady/woman vs lady/woman
4 married woman vs. spinster
4 -1 married woman vs lady
3 married or unmarried women
References
Refs.

Discussion

bigedsenior Feb 9, 2015:
Could it be that a stray comma has been inserted between Senoras and viudas?
franglish Feb 7, 2015:
with Robin spinster is the designation for señora that makes sense here.
Rosa Paredes Feb 7, 2015:
@asker IMO, and as a speaker of Spanish as my mother tongue, the speaker is using "señora" as a respectful way to say woman - as opposed to a young girl or señorita.
Danik 2014 Feb 7, 2015:
LOL! @Juan
Pienso que todo ese lio és porque el autor del texto quiso evitar el término "soltera" por su carga negativa. En inglés hoy dia hay el "Ms." y en alemán se dice "Frau" para las mujeres que no quieren explicitar se son casadas o nó. Pero en español y portugues no hay designación correspondiente hoy y menos habria cuando escrivieran el texto.
Perdonen mi los errores de español. Son 1 h de la mañana y es mi cuarta lengua.
Juan Jacob Feb 7, 2015:
Muy interesante problema. Efectivamente, nunca le diría señora a alguien evidentemente joven... pero tampoco le diría señorita, pues no sé si está casada o no... y no todas las señoras son casadas. Argh. Think simple. ¿Por qué no dejar married women y women y nos quitamos el espinoso problema? Older woman no me gusta para nada.
Danik 2014 Feb 7, 2015:
IMO Señoras, as opposed to señoritas, usually include married women and widows.
But it is also a respectful designation of an older woman, whether she is married or not.
I think in this case the señora is the spinster as differentiated from the married woman and the widow.
Jennifer Levey Feb 6, 2015:
In the 19th C (and earlier) ... ... and in many cultures on both sides of the Atlantic, there was a powerful 'pecking order' governing who could serve as a 'comadrona' (midwife).

Top of the list were spinsters (a term now deprecated, unfortunately) referring to childless women beyond child-bearing age. Next came childless widows. Then widows with children, who were likely to be grandmothers and, let's say, well-versed in the basics of child-birth whilst also immunised against any idea of stealing a healthy new-born. Bottom of the list came young married women, with or without children of their own, who were considered 'unreliable' or even 'high-risk'. Men, of course, had no place in this list.

All this is reflected (in part) in the last sentence of Kathryn's kuestion, which suggests that the 'first School of Nursing in Mexico' was prepared to buck the social stigma and accept 'casadas con hijos' as midwifes.
George Rabel Feb 6, 2015:
mature ladies No sé si tu traducción debe corresponder al mismo vocabulario de época y si debes adaptarlo al lenguaje actual, pero si se trata del segundo caso, tal vez "mature ladies" sea una buena opción.
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
On the other hand I suppose it's just possible that it refers to two categories: (a) mujeres casadas, señoras and (b) viudas. In this reading "mujeres casadas, señoras" could be a tautological way of saying married women whose husbands are living.
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
Good idea, but... That occurred to me too, but it doesn't work. If it said "señoras, casadas o viudas" it would be very plausible, but a viuda can't be a mujer casada: mujer casada was always used to mean a woman whose husband was living.
Jennifer Levey Feb 6, 2015:
Are you parsing it correctly? I read
mujeres casadas, señoras o viudas
in the (somewhat tautological) sense of:
married women, be they married or widowed.

IOW, 'casada' and 'viuda' are two categories of 'mujer casada' - the distinction being that husband of the first is still alive, whilst the husband of the second is not.
Helena Chavarria Feb 6, 2015:
A 'señora' might refer to a member of the nobility, as in 'Lady'.

Proposed translations

45 mins

married woman - older woman

...mujeres casadas, señoras o viudas.
...married women, older women or widows.

Si hay una distinción entre mujeres casadas y señoras, con seguridad señoras se refiere a mujeres mayores.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Jennifer Levey : In the 19th C the distinction was not based on 'age', but on the 'ability to bear children'.
1 hr
agree Danik 2014
1 hr
neutral Juan Jacob : Older hace referencia a "más vieja", según tu planteamiento. No me gusta. ¿Más vieja... de cuánto? Married woman y woman, y nos quitamos del problema. Interesante debate.
4 hrs
disagree Rosa Paredes : Definitely not "older woman"
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

married woman vs lady

My impression is that it was all about class in the XIXth century. Married women had to be part of the ruling class and light-skinned to be entitled to being a lady.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Jennifer Levey : How is any of that relevant to Asker's context which is all about who could train to become a 'comadrona'?
1 hr
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11 hrs

married lady/woman vs lady/woman

I think "“señoras, viudas con hijos, o casadas con o sin hijos” translates as "ladies, widowed with children, or married with our without children” without any kerfuffle.
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12 hrs

married or unmarried women

Why not? The latter suggests a mature female while avoiding 'spinster'...
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1 day 7 hrs

married woman vs. spinster

Fascinating discussion, with great viewpoints. I can't say I agree, though, with Juan Jacob's dismissive remark about not getting bogged down in "byzantine distinctions" -- Kathryn has brought us a historical text and the translation needs to take 19th-century distinctions and categories seriously, rendering them in a way that respects the 'otherness' of that time period. So, decimonónicamente, veamos:

We are provided with two lists.
I) mujeres casadas, señoras o viudas
II) señoras, viudas con hijos, o casadas con o sin hijos

Before proceeding any further, we have to remember that we're dealing with a register of legal or quasi-legal language. So, we must construe the language, wherever possible, as being logical--as putting forward distinctions/categories that are meaningful, and not overlapping or vague. This doesn't mean legal language can't have mistakes in it, just that we must first proceed on the assumption that the distinctions/categories it puts forward are meaningful.

The ambiguity we are left with by List I (i.e., whether 'señoras' and 'viudas' are meant to be subcategories of 'mujeres casadas' or, rather, should be understood as the second and third items in a listing) is resolved by examining List II. The latter shows us that 'señoras' is not a subcategory of 'mujeres casadas' but rather a separate category.

This leaves us with the following combined list:

III) (a) casadas (con o sin hijos), (b) viudas (con hijos), (c) señoras

I believe the only interpretation that makes sense in the context is that 'señora' refers to those more commonly known as 'solteronas'... "las que quedan para vestir santos" in the folk phrase. To translate this 'señora' I recommend 'spinster' which was long a legal term in the English-speaking world, designating an unmarried woman beyond childbearing age -- its elimination from British civil-law terminology, i.e. marriage certificates, along with 'bachelor,' occurred, amazingly, only 10 years ago: www.unmarriedamerica.org/members/news/2005/August-News/spin...

'Older woman' clearly would not work, in my view. It's much too subjective a category, and is not logically distinct from the others (are not 'viudas' often 'older'? indeed, are not 'mujeres casadas' often 'older' as well?). It's also the wrong register... too informal a term to make sense in what is essentially a kind of legal language.
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Reference comments

35 mins
Reference:

Refs.

Senoras | Define Senoras at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/senoras
Senoras definition, a Spanish term of address equivalent to Mrs., used alone or capitalized and prefixed to the name of a married or older woman. See more.

señora - Wiktionary
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/señora
señora (plural señoras). A Spanish term of address equivalent to Mrs., used alone or capitalized and prefixed to the name of a married or older woman.

I would not call them "old women" (sounds rude to me), but rather "older women", IMO.

HTH!

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Note added at 57 mins (2015-02-06 22:24:05 GMT)
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http://www.quora.com/When-do-you-use-señora-vs-senorita-when...
Disclaimer: this is applicable in Spain, other Spanish speaking countries will likely be different

As Neil points out, it's not necessarily connected to marital status, and it's also influenced by age. Roughly:
- A married 25 y/o woman would be perfectly happy to be called "señorita" almost everywhere, every time, except when expecting formality.
- A young woman may be called "señora" in some formal contexts, or when the speaker is trying to affect politeness. Regardless of marital status. She won't feel offended because "señora" will not imply "you look old" but instead "I'm trying to be polite".
- As age increases, "señorita" starts getting offensive. At 30 she'll be happy. A 40 she'll just assume you're pointlessly trying to flatter her. A 50 she'll think you're mocking her. Again, regardless of marital status.
- I can think of exceptions for all of those cases, based on her personality, social background, etc.

If in doubt, I'd go for señorita for <30-35, señora for > 40. Inbetween, use your best judgement. If you want to be formal, just consider señora for young unmarried women (but keep señora for older women in all cases).
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral Francois Boye : I agree that the distinction is long gone in the today Spanish speaking world. But what about the old Spanish tradition? A lady (señora)is a married woman. On the contrary, a married woman is not necessarily a lady.// Agree with your response.
6 mins
IMO, señora is also an "older" woman; I was not the one to make any ref. to being a "lady" - that is in the discussion box//Disagree with idea of "señora" in L. Amer. to mean an "older" woman has disap./ Why the neutral? You contradict y/self & post "lady
agree Juan Jacob : "-Buenas, señora. -¡Señorita, aunque le cueste más trabajo!" [Típico, al menos en México]. Dejaría, por señora, woman, y ya. O terminaremos en discusiones bizantinas sobre la edad, el estatus marital, su virginidad, etc.
4 hrs
Gracias Juan.
agree Susan Andrew : Or maybe mature women?
12 hrs
Thank you Susan. Yes, that is how I see it.
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