Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
Past Perfect with Before
English answer:
... before all the sales staff had arrived
Added to glossary by
B D Finch
Mar 29, 2016 08:52
8 yrs ago
English term
Past Perfect with Before
Non-PRO
English
Other
Linguistics
Grammar Issues
There is a sentence in Personal Study Book for Business Benchmark by Guy Brook-Hart (page 23):
6. The meeting started before all the sales staff ................ (arrive).
There are two options given in the key to this exercise: had arrived/arrived.
While there is no argument concerning the Simple Past, I find it difficult to explain the use of Past Perfect in this context. I would be more at ease to say The meeting had started before all the staff arrived....
6. The meeting started before all the sales staff ................ (arrive).
There are two options given in the key to this exercise: had arrived/arrived.
While there is no argument concerning the Simple Past, I find it difficult to explain the use of Past Perfect in this context. I would be more at ease to say The meeting had started before all the staff arrived....
Responses
4 +1 | ... before all the sales staff had arrived | B D Finch |
4 +5 | had arrived | Jack Doughty |
Change log
Mar 29, 2016 09:20: Steffen Walter changed "Field (specific)" from "Other" to "Linguistics"
Apr 5, 2016 08:32: B D Finch Created KOG entry
Responses
+1
5 hrs
Selected
... before all the sales staff had arrived
The meeting started before all the sales staff ................ (arrive).
There are two options given in the key to this exercise: had arrived/arrived.
The past perfect is used here both to show the order of occurrence of two past events, and to indicate that all the sales staff did, indeed, arrive subsequently. The sentence is constructed in a way that puts the emphasis on the organisation of the meeting, which was not delayed to wait for the sales staff. This construction would be used e.g. if one wanted to criticise the organisers of the meeting for not waiting.
You suggest an alternative: "The meeting had started before all the [sales] staff arrived." This puts the emphasis on the staff who missed the beginning of the meeting and would be used e.g. if the sales staff were being criticised for their lateness.
There are two options given in the key to this exercise: had arrived/arrived.
The past perfect is used here both to show the order of occurrence of two past events, and to indicate that all the sales staff did, indeed, arrive subsequently. The sentence is constructed in a way that puts the emphasis on the organisation of the meeting, which was not delayed to wait for the sales staff. This construction would be used e.g. if one wanted to criticise the organisers of the meeting for not waiting.
You suggest an alternative: "The meeting had started before all the [sales] staff arrived." This puts the emphasis on the staff who missed the beginning of the meeting and would be used e.g. if the sales staff were being criticised for their lateness.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Sheila Wilson
: A good example of how emphasis shifts in two equally correct sentences
1 day 7 hrs
|
Thanks Sheila
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "It's all so tricky. Thank you anyway."
+5
7 mins
had arrived
The meeting started before all the staff had arrived. I'm not a grammarian, haven't had a lesson in English grammar since 1950, but I'm sure it should be Past Perfect here.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Christine Andersen
47 mins
|
Thank you.
|
|
agree |
Edith Kelly
56 mins
|
Thank you.
|
|
agree |
Yasutomo Kanazawa
2 hrs
|
Тhank you.
|
|
agree |
Tina Vonhof (X)
5 hrs
|
Thank you.
|
|
agree |
acetran
1 day 1 hr
|
Thank you.
|
Discussion
Past perfect is used for a specific occasion.
The staff arrived every day - or regularly, and a meeting might be held before they normally arrived.
This is a specific meeting, which started before some staff had arrived (on that particular occasion).