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scharfer Gewalt
Weichenschlosser
Sep 21, 2016 19:25
7 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term

XXX, VON Rapperswil DE, .... (SWITZERLAND)

German to English Law/Patents Law (general) Swiss German
Hello everyone,
I hope someone has come across this before. It's about the personal data of Swiss citizens. They have, e.g. in their passports, an additional place mentioned : Claudia Muller, von Rapperswill BE, geboren am 1.1.1966 in Winterthur...

now I know for certain that the "von" does not mean the place of residence. It has something to do where your father was either born or married or something like that. It is neither the place of birth.

I am strugling to find the correct English translation for this "von". Many thanks for any help available.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +8 place of origin/family origin
4 XXX, from Rapperswil BE (Bern) ... Switzerland
References
Bürgerort / place of origin
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Edith Kelly

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Discussion

Daniel Arnold (X) (asker) Sep 23, 2016:
Hi Thomas, no, I don't think omitting it would have been too good. I used "from" and I think that'll do just fine for the purpose of that reference letter. It is a strange thing, uniquely Swiss, my daughters also have Swiss citizenship and their "Bürgerort" is some village noone in their family has ever been to or has any relationship with. Apparently the place of birth of their grandfather. The whole thing seems completely obsolete to me.... Cheers D
Thomas Pfann Sep 23, 2016:
Did you consider omitting it? Did you consider omitting the whole "von Rapperswil" part? Depending on the intended use of the translation this might be the best option (especially if it's to be used as a letter of reference rather than the translation of a letter of reference). After all, the 'Heimatort' generally is irrelevant (see my links and Björns additional comments) so it doesn't add anything to the text and it only confuses anyone who is not familiar with this Swiss peculiarity. (Imagine if yet a third place appears in the address: "So this person is from Rapperswil, was born in Winterthur and lives in Zurich?" How confusing is that!?)
Daniel Arnold (X) (asker) Sep 22, 2016:
Many thanks to all of you for your input. I did go with "from in the end" as I had no other option that flows in a letter of reference. I doubt it makes any difference for the purpose of the translation.... Thanks Björn, franglish and Armorel for your assistance.
Björn Vrooman Sep 22, 2016:
@franglish Thanks for sharing. For all practical purposes, you may have no other choice than to use "from," whether or not it's factually correct.

What Thomas didn't mention in his reference was the following:
"Nachdem das Schweizer Parlament Ende 2012 entschied, dass die Heimatorte (Bürgergemeinden) sich nicht mehr länger an Fürsorge-Leistungen für ihre Bürgerinnen und Bürger in Not beteiligen müssen, sind sie nur noch für das Führen der Register zuständig. Das System der Heimatorte hat über die Jahre derart an praktischer Bedeutung verloren, dass sie nicht einmal mehr für die Volkszählung erfasst werden."

Confirmed by other sources; the "Heimatort" is getting increasingly irrelevant.
franglish Sep 22, 2016:
FROM This is a letter of reference, not a passport. In fact, not even my Swiss ID card provides this information.
Björn Vrooman Sep 21, 2016:
Now this... "Unabhängig vom Geburts— und allen weiteren Lebensorten wurden und werden die Lebensdaten aller schweizerischen Staatsangehörigen in den Personenregistern ihres Heimatortes bzw. im dafür zuständigen Zivilstandsamt eingetragen. Dies auch, wenn die gesuchte Person nie dort gelebt hat."
https://sgffweb.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=article...

"ngenommen, Du hast Dich in Deinem Wohnort einbürgern lassen. Somit bist Du nun Bürger von - sagen wir - Kleinguschelmuth [...] Du bist ein Mann und nun Bürger von Kleinguschelmuth, des Kantons Freiburg und der Schweizerischen Eidgenossenschaft. Du ziehst nach Zürich um, heiratest und Ihr kriegt Kinder. Sowohl Deine Frau wie auch Deine Kinder bekommen den Bürgerort Kleinguschelmuth, auch wenn Sie noch nie dort gelebt haben. Deine Frau kann noch ihren eigenen Bürgerort behalten, wenn sie will. Sie ist dann Bürgerin zweier Gemeinden."
http://www.gutefrage.net/frage/buergerort-schweiz-was-ist-da...

Ugh. Good question whether "from" (or "origin," for that matter) makes much sense in this context.
Björn Vrooman Sep 21, 2016:
@Daniel See here what's on a Swiss passport:
"ein Heimatort (bei mehreren der vom Ausweisinhaber gewünschte)"
http://www.schweizerpass.admin.ch/pass/de/home/ausweise/inha...

Note the part in bold face.

Additionally:
"In der Eidgenossenschaft wurde ab Mitte des 18. Jahrhunderts den Bürgern ein Heimatort zugeordnet. In der Regel handelte es sich dabei um den Wohnort des Familienvorstandes zu diesem Zeitpunkt. Die Heimatgemeinden hatten die Pflicht, für ihre Bürger Register zu führen. Diese sogenannten 'Bürgerrodel' waren Vorläufer des heutigen Zivilstandsregisters. Der Heimatort wird seither von Gesetzes wegen infolge Kindesverhältnisses auf die Nachkommen übertragen."
http://www.schweizerpass.admin.ch/pass/de/home/ausweise/date...

And:
"Andere Staaten kennen hingegen keinen Heimatort, sondern lediglich die Staatsangehörigkeit. Deren Bürger besitzen somit einzig die Staatsangehörigkeit des entsprechenden Staates und sind nicht zugleich noch Bürger einer Gemeinde oder eines Bundesstaates. In diesen Staaten ist oft der Geburtsort einer Person von besonderer Bedeutung und daher in den amtlichen Dokumenten aufgeführt."

See the part in italics.
Armorel Young Sep 21, 2016:
I wouldn't have any problem with "from" as that is the literal translation of the "von" in the German (and if you think that the inserted information interrupts the flow of the sentence, you could try putting it in brackets).
Daniel Arnold (X) (asker) Sep 21, 2016:
Thanks everyone so far, my problem isn't quite resolved yet, unfortunately.... this is part of a reference letter for an employee and part of a sentence (rather than just stand-alone as in a passport). Using the suggested "place of origin" would not read well at all: "Claudia Müller, von Rapperswill BE, geboren am 1.1.1966, war bei unserem Institut als ... beschäftigt". Maybe I'm just not creative enough tonight, but I still struggle to make this work within this sentence. Anyone here thinks simply using "from" would be a catastrophic error?

Proposed translations

+8
20 mins
Selected

place of origin/family origin

See this Wikipedia entry (is assume no. 7 is what you are talking about)


Identity information page

A Swiss passport includes the following data on the full plastic information page [4]

(left) Photo of the passport bearer
Type of Passport (PA - without biometrics, PM - with biometrics, PD - temporary passport, PB - diplomatic passport)
Code (CHE)
Passport No.
1 Surname
2 Given Name(s)
3 Nationality
4 Date of Birth (dd.mm.yyyy)
5 Sex (M/F)
6 Height in (cm)
7 Place of Origin: family origin (municipality and canton) is different from Place of Birth (which is not displayed in the Swiss passport).
8 Date of Issue
9 Authority
10 Date of Expiry (note: Swiss Passports can no longer be extended after the date of the expiry.[5])
Passport Type:[6]
PM - Passport10, Normal biometric passport containing 1 digital photo and 2 digital finger prints
PB - Service, Diplomatic or Partner
PD - Temporary or Emergency (generally for return travels only)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_passport#Identity_inform...
Note from asker:
Thank you Armorel!
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : nothing like a bit of research.......
1 min
agree Thomas Pfann
6 mins
agree Lancashireman : Same reason that Joseph of Nazareth had to go to Bethlehem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Joseph
2 hrs
agree Ramey Rieger (X)
10 hrs
agree Gudrun Wolfrath
13 hrs
agree Ines R.
15 hrs
agree Edith Kelly : but this hardly qualifies as "Pro"
3 days 21 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
620 days
Something went wrong...
2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "thank you."
23 mins

XXX, from Rapperswil BE (Bern) ... Switzerland

XXX, from Rapperswil BE (Bern) ... Switzerland
In this case Claudia Mueller, from Rapperswil BE (Bern) ... Switzerland
They did this because in Switzerland are 2 places with the name Rapperswil.
Rapperswil is a civil parish in the canton of Bern in Switzerland, Rapperswil (BE).
Rapperswil-Jona is the name of a civil parish in the canton of St. Gallen ... (which exists since 2007)
Reference:

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Rapperswil-Jona,+Schweiz/@47.2329914,7.7364841,8z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x479ab7c81618c2ab:0xf9db7e38adba80d9!8m2

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Rapperswil+BE,+Schweiz/@47.0578346,7.2700738,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x478e24ae75c147ed:0x400ff884018d690!8m2!3

Something went wrong...

Reference comments

19 mins
Reference:

Bürgerort / place of origin

Explanation on swissinfo.ch: "Open a Swiss passport and instead of the usual birthplace it will show a citizen’s ‘place of origin’, where their ancestors and family names originate. Despite recent changes paring down the system, this spot remains important for many people. [...]"
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-roots_home-town-is-where-t...

See also Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_of_origin

And previous KudoZ answers: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/other/180213-bür...
Note from asker:
Thanks very much Thomas, I had not heard Bürgerort before. Appreciate your help.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree writeaway : nothing like a bit of research........
2 mins
I remember this popping up in KudoZ once or twice before...
agree Armorel Young : Hadn't seen this when I posted my answer
2 mins
I remember this popping up in KudoZ once or twice before...
agree Björn Vrooman : See also discussion. You make a good point about this being a reference letter. The question is who will receive it. If it's an ENS, he or she may indeed by confused.
1 day 17 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
620 days
Something went wrong...
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