Oct 19, 2017 15:51
6 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
French-English translator, HR and wine
Native in: English (Variant: British) 
Works in: French to English, English to French
libre sépulture
French to English
Other
Religion
Le choeur était réservé à l’inhumation des moines et des abbés (lors des dernières fouilles archéologiques de 2011- 2012, on y a découvert une douzaine de sépultures). Seules les personnes très fortunées pouvaient se faire enterrer en ce lieu, moyennant le versement d’une forte somme d’argent. Cette pratique porte le nom de libre sépulture.
Voilà, tout est dit !
Voilà, tout est dit !
Proposed translations
(English)
| 2 +2 | free sepulchre |
katsy
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Change log
Oct 19, 2017 16:07: philgoddard changed "Language pair" from "French to English" to "English to French"
Oct 19, 2017 16:17: Tony M changed "Language pair" from "English to French" to "French to English"
Proposed translations
+2
32 mins
Selected
free sepulchre
Like Phil I think that the phrase does not mean that you had to pay to be buried there,; but I differ in that I think it means that a person is given permission to be buried ( in a consecrated place nevertheless) where he/she requests - and not, for example in his/her parish church.
See here in French https://books.google.fr/books?id=cgtijCf6cgMC&pg=PA487&lpg=P...
The paragraph before "libre sépulture" explains that a convent and an abbey, after application to the Pope (in 13th century) received permission to bury the dead.
The convents that did this were obliged to "safeguard the rights of the churches which the deceased belonged to", which sounds as though they had to pay them, but they were allowed to keep for themselves a part of the "donations" given for said burial.
So that's for the French.
And for the English
https://books.google.fr/books?id=2652AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA...
"For this mine alms, the canons ..... at my death have conceded to me the free sepulchre which I have chosen amongst them"
I would say then that 'libre sépulture' and "free sepulchre" means being allowed to be buried in a place where you would not normally be buried i.e. outside your own home parish. And you would pay for that privilege.
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Note added at 33 mins (2017-10-19 16:25:27 GMT)
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ooops, I am not guessing, but deducing. (to explain confidence level)
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Note added at 36 mins (2017-10-19 16:27:55 GMT)
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The first sentence of my "explanation" says Phil says something which he did not say - sorry.
See here in French https://books.google.fr/books?id=cgtijCf6cgMC&pg=PA487&lpg=P...
The paragraph before "libre sépulture" explains that a convent and an abbey, after application to the Pope (in 13th century) received permission to bury the dead.
The convents that did this were obliged to "safeguard the rights of the churches which the deceased belonged to", which sounds as though they had to pay them, but they were allowed to keep for themselves a part of the "donations" given for said burial.
So that's for the French.
And for the English
https://books.google.fr/books?id=2652AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA...
"For this mine alms, the canons ..... at my death have conceded to me the free sepulchre which I have chosen amongst them"
I would say then that 'libre sépulture' and "free sepulchre" means being allowed to be buried in a place where you would not normally be buried i.e. outside your own home parish. And you would pay for that privilege.
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Note added at 33 mins (2017-10-19 16:25:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
ooops, I am not guessing, but deducing. (to explain confidence level)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2017-10-19 16:27:55 GMT)
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The first sentence of my "explanation" says Phil says something which he did not say - sorry.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: Yes, I think you're right. Neither the French nor the English gets many hits, and I haven't found a definition of the English, but it's too much of a coincidence that they both exist.
18 mins
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Thanks Phil :-) Yes not many hits - rather a 'pointu' subject I think; but there is a definite convergence in description of the concepts in English and French. Charles' quote - which I had also seen, would tend to confirm (I hope!)
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| agree |
Charles Davis
: // I think you've made a good case, and I agree with Phil: these two terms must mean the same thing.
26 mins
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Thank you Charles :-) I was hoping for your agree! And thank you for the extra references!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "I'm no expert on the subject, so appreciate all of this help. I'm more than happy to accept "free sepulchre"."
Discussion
https://books.google.es/books?id=xEc82u1dPEcC&pg=PA276&lpg=P...
"The examination of the matter was committed to the cardinals, who, after a long controversy, decided against him. FitzRalph was silenced, and the rights of the friars in relation to preaching, confession, and free sepulchre were maintained. "
http://sokol.co.uk/category/interests/
"The prioress and convent of S. Rhadegund thereupon before the bishop granted to the hospital and the brethren there serving God, free and pure chantry in the hospital for ever, also free sepulchre where they willed and should choose. To recompence the nuns certain persons gave them rents amounting to three shillings per annum."
https://archive.org/stream/memorialscambri01coopgoog/memoria...
2. Could the writer have got the wrong end of the stick? From what I've found, "libre sépulture" means that anyone could be buried there.