AllegroTrans Jul 11, 2018:

IRS Is USA; asker's text is from SPAIN, just a small point...

Francois Boye Jul 11, 2018:

Untrue! Actuaries have the power to review all documents submitted to revenue agents (those in charge of tax audit).

Charles Davis Jul 11, 2018:

But those activities do not include conducting tax audits (the question heading shows that that is what is involved here): acting as a tax examiner before whom a taxpayer is summoned to appear. In other words, an IRS auditor is clearly not equivalent to this "actuario".

Francois Boye Jul 11, 2018:

@ All

You can see that IRS actuaries cover a large range of activities

Francois Boye Jul 11, 2018:

My attachment has been removed. I don't know what happened. So I am sending a document specifying what IRS actuaries do.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/what-is-an-actuary-a-br...

What I am saying is that Asker should disclose more information about what the text he is translating says about 'actuario'. That would make our elaborations unnecessary.

Charles Davis Jul 11, 2018:

@François 1. Your attachment relates to an "Actuary (Insurance)".

2. The IRS is a bureau of the Treasury Department, but obviously it doesn't follow that everyone who works for the Treasury Department works for the IRS. There is no evidence that the actuary in your reference works for the IRS. And in any case, even if it is so it is irrelevant, since what you would have to show is that actuaries work for the Spanish Tax Agency and conduct tax audits.

3. If the asker's text defined "actuario" he would presumably not have asked the question. To say "nobody should substitute for him" amounts to saying that nobody should answer questions on this forum. By posting an answer you yourself have "substituted for him".

4. Your last paragraph betrays so complete a misunderstanding of how languages work that I hardly know how to answer. Please bear in mind that "actuario" is a Spanish word and "actuary" is an English word. Each has the meaning or meanings it has. There is no a priori reason why they must be the same. To use my previous analogy, the concepts of assisting and attending are different in English. Why would they be the same in French?

Francois Boye Jul 11, 2018:

Response:

The text is clear-cut: 'actuario for the Tax Agency in Spain'. I translated this by 'Treasury actuary' and by presenting an IRS attachment.

I dismissed the objection that the IRS was different from the Treasury by showing the evidence that the IRS was indeed a bureau of the US Treasury.

I also challenged the other translators by giving them a self-evident definition of actuario in Spanish, which backs up my translation.

Who is right or wrong? It is incumbent upon Asker to release more information about how the text defines the 'acturio' in a Spanish tax agency. Nobody should substitute for him.

Another point: words have meanings. Why would an actuary be an auditor or a tax examiner. These three concepts are different in English. Why should they be the same in Spanish?

Charles Davis Jul 11, 2018:

@François Your argument is based on the premise that "actuario" in Spanish always and only means the same as "actuary" in English, and that premise is false. It can mean "actuary", but it can also mean other things that are not called "actuary" in English: a court clerk or a tax inspector. How do we know it means one of those other things here? Because "actuary" doesn't fit the context (nor does "court clerk"), but "tax inspector" does. And that is Allegro's point.

To take an analogy, suppose I translated "tous les assistants étaient debout" as "all the assistants were standing". You might say to me: "no, it means 'all those present were standing'". If I defended my translation by saying: "look at the definition of 'assistant' in English", you would certainly tell me that I had to look at the definition of "assistant" in French.

Francois Boye Jul 11, 2018:

@ Allegro

Look at the definition of an actuary's job

AllegroTrans Jul 10, 2018:

Francois Step back and ask yourself: why would a taxpayer be summoned to appear before an actuary? Does it really make sense?

Charles Davis Jul 9, 2018:

AEAT translation By the way, although the English versions of the AEAT's web pages are generally not too bad, in my experience, there is an egregious error in the translation of this term:

"Las actuaciones de comprobación que desarrolla la Agencia Tributaria a través del procedimiento de inspección pueden poner de manifiesto hechos susceptibles de ser constitutivos de un delito contra la Hacienda Pública. En tal caso, una vez ultimada la actuación de la Agencia Tributaria, da lugar a la elaboración un informe detallado por el actuario y a la presentación de las correspondientes denuncias y querellas."
https://goo.gl/CPVED9

This comes out as:

"The verification activities carried out by the Tax Agency via the inspection procedure can reveal facts which may constitute offences against the Public Treasury. In such a case, once the Tax Agency's action has been completed, it gives rise to the drafting of a detailed report by the clerk of the court and the submission of the corresponding charges and prosecutions."
https://goo.gl/uB2xPF

Ouch!

Charles Davis Jul 9, 2018:

There are quite a lot of references in Spain to "inspectores actuarios", including in the AEAT website. I think the actuario of a tax inspection will normally be someone of inspector rank, though I've read a several references indicating that the técnicos do pretty much the same work as inspectors for less than half the salary.

Sandro Tomasi Jul 9, 2018:

inspector actuario Diccionario panhispánico del español jurídico
Funcionario de la Administración tributaria competente que ejerce las facultades atribuidas a la inspección y en el ejercicio de las cuales tiene la consideración de agente de la autoridad pública, debiendo acreditar su condición si se le requiere para ello. LGT, art. 142.4.

patinba Jul 9, 2018:

@Charles This description would indicate that an actuario is indeed in a lower position, although I am sure no harm would come from describing them also as inspectors.
Los Técnicos (Inspección) son actuarios, es decir realizan funciones de comprobación e investigación, inicio y finalización de expedientes. Hacen visitas a las empresas, junto a los Inspectores (ámbito de la DCGC) o bien requieren la comparecencia de representantes de las empresas en las oficinas de la AEAT para el examen de la documentación (contabilidad, facturas) y firma de las Actas.

Sandro Tomasi Jul 9, 2018:

Actuary, tax examiner, among others Here https://www.jobs.irs.gov/careers the IRS outlines different positions, including the following:

actuary A specialist for property and casualty insurance company tax audits.

tax examiner (a seasonal position) Evaluates all available information and takes corrective actions, such as credit transfers requests, re-computed tax, and/or penalty and interest. Accesses relevant systems to view and/or update taxpayers' account.

Charles Davis Jul 9, 2018:

@Lorena http://www.sc-exhibitions.com/wp-content/uploads/images/boxe...

lorenab23 Jul 9, 2018:

Thanks, Charles! Sorry for the delay, I know you can't see me but I am taking a bow, holding my dress on both sides http://img09.deviantart.net/ad34/i/2013/240/8/a/cathrine__ta...

Charles Davis Jul 9, 2018:

Thanks, Ryan! But it was Lorena who hit the target here (as usual); I was just signalling my agreement with her suggestion. Lorena, are you there? Take a bow :-)

Ryan Kelly (asker) Jul 9, 2018:

Once again Charles! So, I can go with "auditor" since that would be the closest language equivalent for a reader in the US having to understand this summons from Spain. Plus, the term auditor is not used at all, so I am imagining that this the equivalent position, per your description. Put it down for some more Kudoz!

Ryan Kelly (asker) Jul 9, 2018:

You are correct AllegroTrans That is precisely what it is.

Charles Davis Jul 9, 2018:

So this has nothing to do with either an actuario de seguros, an actuary, or the old-fashioned meaning of actuario as a clerk of the court.

Charles Davis Jul 9, 2018:

Auditor probably suitable It means the "inspector actuario", the inspector who leads the "actuación", which in U.S. terms is a tax audit. The actuario will an an inspector, not a técnico (a lower position), and leads a team of tax professionals, under the ultimate authority of a chief inspector.

AllegroTrans Jul 9, 2018:

So your document? Is a summons to a taxpayer to attend before this individual? Am I correct?

Enrique Bjarne Strand Ferrer Jul 9, 2018:

Parece ser los que tramitan los recursos en Hacienda.

lorenab23 Jul 9, 2018:

Auditor? Based on this, it seems to be an auditor:
El actuario o actuarios son funcionarios a nivel de inspector de Hacienda y al no formar parte del poder judicial no se requiere abogado ni procurador -representación legal- ni pago de tasas; y aunque desde el inicio de todo el procedimiento haya transcurrido ya más de un año es importante saber que más de un 40% de los casos se resuelven a favor del contribuyente.
http://www.interasesoria.net/como-probar-que-lo-declarado-es...