Jan 15, 2019 13:40
5 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

a bien

Non-PRO French to English Art/Literary Linguistics Translation
"Ce traducteur a bien retraduit Plutarque."

This is from an essay by Berman on retranslation. He is explaining how a retranslation is not solely any translation of a text already translated, and he gives the example of Amyot's translations of Plutarch.

Appreciate any response in advance.
Proposed translations (English)
4 well
3 retranslated (with a high degree of) accuracy
Change log

Jan 15, 2019 15:15: Rachel Fell changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (1): Daryo

Non-PRO (3): Barbara Carrara, Lara Barnett, Rachel Fell

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Discussion

Hamid Parham (asker) Jan 16, 2019:
indeed it is "indeed" Thanks everyone for your valuable comments. Thus discussion was very helpful to me.
All the points made about the context, the syntax, or the subsequent "mais..." add up with what Berman is actually implying. Berman is argueing that all "great" translations are retranslations and then, in trying to validate his arguement, he posits the counter arguement that there are great translations that are not retranslations. Then he dismisses this counter argument by widening the meaning of retranslation to include even those works that has never been translated into the same language before. His argument is that a retranslation is not solely any new translation of a work already translated. Amyot's Plutarch is one such example where it had not actually been translated before (arguably not a retranslation then, yet a great translation) yet Berman considers a retranslation, according to his widened definition of retranslation.
Tony M Jan 15, 2019:
@ Victoria Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head there ... sort of what I was hinting at when I said to Asker that it might be worth looking for a subsequent "mais...", for example.
Philippa Smith Jan 15, 2019:
indeed The meaning is very clearly "indeed" on reading the article (bravo Charles!) so one of you should be post it.
Victoria Britten Jan 15, 2019:
@Tony Interesting observation. I feel it also works if the next sentence qualifies or continues the thought in some way: "En revanche, ses autres travaux sont moins intéressants," for example.
Charles Davis Jan 15, 2019:
@Tony That's a very interesting thought. Maybe so.
Tony M Jan 15, 2019:
@ Charles I was just musing that the 'well' sense seems to be generally more likely if the following verb is intransitive, as in both your and my own illustrations...?
Charles Davis Jan 15, 2019:
@writeaway I agree with you and Tony that if the author had meant to say that he did it well it would probably have been expressed differently, though "bien" in that position can mean well, for example in "il a bien travaillé".
Tony M Jan 15, 2019:
@ Trevino In answer to your comment "...there is nothing in the text provided to indicate it could be "indeed"..." — but of course there is! The very syntax '[subject] a bien [past participle] is a pretty clear indicator — and cf. "Il a beau... [+ inf.]
If it really meant literally 'well', as W/A rightly points out, there are other much more likely constructions the writer might have used instead that would generally be more idiomatic in FR — though cf. expressions like 'il a bien fait de venir'
Victoria Britten Jan 15, 2019:
Charles has gone the extra mile, as usual : thanks! That widened meaning of "retranslate" indeed seems not only pointless but likely to cause confusion.
While I don't agree with W/A that the syntax as given precludes it meaning "well", Charles's explanations seem to me to leave no doubt as to the meaning intended.
Trevino Translations (X) Jan 15, 2019:
I get everyone's point but... there is nothing in the text provided to indicate it could be "indeed". Perhaps context will prove so. ")
writeaway Jan 15, 2019:
@Charles Even without seeing the source text, it's fairly obvious that it means indeed in this case. In terms of syntax, bien wouldn't be located there if it meant well.
Tony M Jan 15, 2019:
@ Asker: Context? As Victoria and W/A have already said, it's impossible to know for sure without more of your surrounding context.
From the syntax used, I'd say Victoria's suggestion of "did indeed re-translate" or even something along the lines "may (well) have re-translated..." — in which case, we would reasonably expect it to be followed by a "mais..." (explicit or implied)
I think if the writer had wanted to say that he had produced a good translation, there are better / more idiomatic ways they might have expressed this in FR.
Charles Davis Jan 15, 2019:
VIctoria's right I looked up the source. "Bien" clearly does mean "indeed", not "well", in context. The author is not talking about how well Amyot "retranslated" Plutarch. (He did it very well indeed, by common consent; so Montaigne thought, certainly.) It's here if anyone wants to look:
https://journals.openedition.org/palimpsestes/596

I looked it up mainly because I couldn't understand why the author says that Amyot retranslated Plutarch. He worked directly from the Greek, not from a Latin version. So why does he say that Amyot "a retraduit" Plutarch? The answer turns out to be that for this author "retranslation" includes translation of an original text that has already been translated before, albeit independently, and apparently into any language, since before Amyot, as far as I know, Plutarch had only been translated into Latin. I can't see the point of widening the meaning of "retranslate" like this.
writeaway Jan 15, 2019:
With Victoria 100% as it is exactly what I was about to post. Nothing to do with well
Victoria Britten Jan 15, 2019:
More context needed Though Trevino's answer is arguably the most likely, "a bien traduit" could also mean Amyot "did indeed translate" Plutarch.

Proposed translations

1 hr

well

"Bien" qualifies "a...retraduit". Of course, there are lots of ways to say "well" but this seems the easiest choice.

Peer comment(s):

neutral Victoria Britten : Probable, but it's impossible to be entirely sure without more context.
23 mins
neutral writeaway : really really doubtful it means well in the supposed context
30 mins
How so? The only other meaning would be to affirm that the work was indeed done by a specific translator. The text given gives no hint of doubt.
neutral Tony M : Agree with Victoria and W/A: the syntax used here more strongly suggests the alternative sense of 'bien', as outlined by Victoria in the discussion.
55 mins
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

retranslated (with a high degree of) accuracy

Translated Plutarch with a high degree of accuracy, rather than the first time it was attempted.
Something went wrong...
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