Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles
English translation:
are to be subject of (an) account(s) taken inter se
Added to glossary by
Adrian MM.
Nov 2, 2019 21:50
4 yrs ago
24 viewers *
French term
Accuracy & Attention to Detail
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, Italian to English, and 2 more.
donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
prenuptual agreement
This is from a prenuptual agreement in France.
Not really sure about the wording for "donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles" in this context (last part of the context below).
...and shall give rise to ______? what?
Context:
CONTRIBUTION DES CONJOINTS AUX CHARGES DU MARIAGE
Conformément aux dispositions de l’article 214 du Code civil, les conjoints contribueront aux charges du mariage en proportion de leurs facultés respectives.
Par principe, chacun d’eux sera réputé avoir fourni au jour le jour sa part contributive.
Toutefois et par exception, les parties déclarent que les dépenses relatives à l'acquisition et à l'amélioration du logement de la famille, et le cas échéant, de toute résidence secondaire, quel qu'en soit le propriétaire, ne seront pas considérées comme charges du mariage, et donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles, que ces dépenses aient été ou non financées au moyen d'un prêt.
Not really sure about the wording for "donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles" in this context (last part of the context below).
...and shall give rise to ______? what?
Context:
CONTRIBUTION DES CONJOINTS AUX CHARGES DU MARIAGE
Conformément aux dispositions de l’article 214 du Code civil, les conjoints contribueront aux charges du mariage en proportion de leurs facultés respectives.
Par principe, chacun d’eux sera réputé avoir fourni au jour le jour sa part contributive.
Toutefois et par exception, les parties déclarent que les dépenses relatives à l'acquisition et à l'amélioration du logement de la famille, et le cas échéant, de toute résidence secondaire, quel qu'en soit le propriétaire, ne seront pas considérées comme charges du mariage, et donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles, que ces dépenses aient été ou non financées au moyen d'un prêt.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 +4 | are to be subject to (an) account(s) taken between themselves |
Adrian MM.
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| 5 | shall give rise to an accounting between them/the parties |
Eliza Hall
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Change log
Nov 16, 2019 10:22: Adrian MM. Created KOG entry
Nov 16, 2019 10:26: Adrian MM. changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/2688125">Adrian MM.'s</a> old entry - "donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles"" to ""are to be subject of (an) account(s) taken between themselves""
Proposed translations
+4
12 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
359
Selected
are to be subject to (an) account(s) taken between themselves
Mabye just add the word 'taken', namely a stage before settling up on paper or in actual fact. In Anglo-Am. partnership law, an analogous scenario, the 'taking of accounts' (or, more usually, an account cf. 'liquidation in ITA & SPA) is standard practis/ce on a partner leaving the partnership.
Entre elles: between rather than 'as between' or - sometimes queried even by legal clients who ought to know better - inter se.
Entre elles: between rather than 'as between' or - sometimes queried even by legal clients who ought to know better - inter se.
Example sentence:
The taking of accounts.... involves examining financial documents such as bank statements, invoices, payment vouchers, profit and loss statements and business ledgers.
Black's Law Dictioary: AS BETWEEN This term applies to the relative position of 2 people in reference to a third person where the relationship to the third person is different for the 2 parties.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
53 mins
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Thanks and merci! Sometimes an 'obvious' missing word does not turn out that obvious.
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| neutral |
Eliza Hall
: Right meaning, but the phrasing is off ("an accounting" is used in both the UK and US, and there's no reason to change "X donneront lieu à Y" to "X are to be subject to Y").
4 hrs
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Accounting between the spouses is *not* used in the UK, but admittedly the asker is US American.
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| agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: "To be the subject of" wld be my natural UK legalese suggestion for "donner lieu à" here. I'd go with "inter se".
4 hrs
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Thanks, Nikki, for your 'British blessing' of subject to or of and inter se. En tout état de cause / be that as it may, we seem to have a Transatlantic US AmE 'accounting' angle to the question & answer.
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: "between them"rather than "themselves"; this surely is comprehensible cross-pond
12 hrs
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Thanks. OK to them rather than themselves. I am acutely aware, though, of the 'American' dimension that might well prevail.
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| agree |
Julie Barber
: I would just say: are subject to accounting between themselves....seems simpler :-)
1 day 22 hrs
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Thanks. Accounting between the spouses, in the UK at any rate, looks like an odd, marital book-keeping pastime.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
16 hrs
Eliza Hall
United States
United States
Native in English
Specializes in field
United States
Lawyer-Translator-Certified Interpreter
Native in: English (Variants: British, UK, US, Scottish, Canadian, Irish)
Works in: French to English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
145
shall give rise to an accounting between them/the parties
This is "comptes" in the sense of "calculs d'argent" or "détermination d'une valeur ou d'une grandeur numérique par un calcul ou une suite de calculs, ou, le plus souvent, par une énumération, un dénombrement" (https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/compte).
Here's another example in the marriage context: "À la dissolution du mariage, la dissolution subséquente du régime matrimonial peut donner lieu à des comptes entre époux, s'agissant, notamment, de la contribution aux charges du ménage." https://actu.dalloz-etudiant.fr/a-la-une/article/contributio...
That's what this source text is talking about. A prenuptial agreement is a premarital agreement that covers how money and assets will be dealt with during the marriage and how money and assets will be split up if the couple divorces.
In English legal terminology, that's called an accounting:
"A spouse owes an accounting to the other spouse for community property under his control at the termination of the community property regime." https://law.justia.com/codes/louisiana/2011/cc/cc2369/
A “court may order an accounting of the property and obligations of the parties to a marriage..." https://dennisfordhamlaw.com/good-faith-between-spouses/
"If a [trust] beneficiary has questions or concerns about the trustee’s investment decisions, they can request an accounting..."
https://suffolklaw.com/what-are-your-rights-as-a-trust-benef...
As written this would be translated as "shall give rise to an accounting between them," but in FR>EN translations, especially in long sentences, I generally prefer to reiterate the noun instead of using a pronoun because in EN we don't have gendered pronouns to help us clarify who or what the pronoun is referring to. Here "elles" is "les parties," so I would just reiterate "the parties."
Here's another example in the marriage context: "À la dissolution du mariage, la dissolution subséquente du régime matrimonial peut donner lieu à des comptes entre époux, s'agissant, notamment, de la contribution aux charges du ménage." https://actu.dalloz-etudiant.fr/a-la-une/article/contributio...
That's what this source text is talking about. A prenuptial agreement is a premarital agreement that covers how money and assets will be dealt with during the marriage and how money and assets will be split up if the couple divorces.
In English legal terminology, that's called an accounting:
"A spouse owes an accounting to the other spouse for community property under his control at the termination of the community property regime." https://law.justia.com/codes/louisiana/2011/cc/cc2369/
A “court may order an accounting of the property and obligations of the parties to a marriage..." https://dennisfordhamlaw.com/good-faith-between-spouses/
"If a [trust] beneficiary has questions or concerns about the trustee’s investment decisions, they can request an accounting..."
https://suffolklaw.com/what-are-your-rights-as-a-trust-benef...
As written this would be translated as "shall give rise to an accounting between them," but in FR>EN translations, especially in long sentences, I generally prefer to reiterate the noun instead of using a pronoun because in EN we don't have gendered pronouns to help us clarify who or what the pronoun is referring to. Here "elles" is "les parties," so I would just reiterate "the parties."
Reference comments
54 mins
andres-larsen
Venezuela
Venezuela
Native in English
Venezuela
freelance translator
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, German to English, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
71
Reference:
comptes entre elles > these non-marital expenses shall be matters to be settled between both parties
excellent discussion thread directly related to your query:
donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles > these [non-marital] expenses shall be matters to be settled between [both] parties [the bridal couple], whether these expenses are financed with a loan or not:
TCTerms – comptes entre elles (English) - Translators Cafe
https://www.translatorscafe.com › tcterms › en-US › question
Oct 27, 2018 - Toutefois et par exception, les parties déclarent que les dépenses ... charges du mariage, et donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles, que ces ...
extract in English:
[...] the parties state that all expenses for the purchase and improvement of the family's place of residence, and, if relevant, any second residence, regardless of who owns it, shall not be considered marriage expenses and that these expenses shall be matters to be settled between them, whether these expenses are financed with a loan or not.
donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles > these [non-marital] expenses shall be matters to be settled between [both] parties [the bridal couple], whether these expenses are financed with a loan or not:
TCTerms – comptes entre elles (English) - Translators Cafe
https://www.translatorscafe.com › tcterms › en-US › question
Oct 27, 2018 - Toutefois et par exception, les parties déclarent que les dépenses ... charges du mariage, et donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles, que ces ...
extract in English:
[...] the parties state that all expenses for the purchase and improvement of the family's place of residence, and, if relevant, any second residence, regardless of who owns it, shall not be considered marriage expenses and that these expenses shall be matters to be settled between them, whether these expenses are financed with a loan or not.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
mchd
8 hrs
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| disagree |
Daryo
: "settlement" implies a final payment that is closing/ending a relationship with some other party - This clause is about the ongoing marriage, NOT about ending the marriage (by divorce or otherwise) // your link is useless
10 hrs
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| agree |
Eliza Hall
: Good reference. I disagree w/Daryo because by definition a prenuptial agreement is about both ongoing marriage and divorce. It's about how the spouses deal with property during marriage and how they'll split it if they divorce.
15 hrs
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Discussion
to the same question on translatorscafe.com shows that most reached more or less the same conclusion "separate accounting of this kind of expenses"
simply means that any spending on "l'acquisition et à l'amélioration du logement de la famille, et le cas échéant, de toute résidence secondaire, ..." will be accounted separately from all other spending where there is a presumption that "par principe, chacun d’eux sera réputé avoir fourni au jour le jour sa part contributive".
"ces dépenses ... donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles" => that kind of spending ( "l'acquisition et à l'amélioration du logement de la famille, etc") will be accounted separately and each of the spouse will have an "account" with the other one showing their exact contribution i.e. how much is potentially due to or owed by the other spouse.
Any "settlement" would happen ONLY if the marriage ends, like in case of divorce.
For example "...regardless of who is the owner, shall not be considered to be household expenses and shall result in ______, regardless of whether or not these expenses were financed through a loan." Is there something that fits in there? or does it have to be completely re-worded?
However, when it comes to the purchase and improvement of marital home and/or holiday home, irrespective of who is actually the owner, contributions to these properties are not treated in the same way as the day to day cost of running the home(s). Each of the spouse's contributions are to be considered separately: "les dépenses... donneront lieu à des comptes entre elles [les parties]". Thus, such expenditure is to be assessed on the basis of what each individual spouse actually contributed. There is no pro rata assumption for these contributions.