Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
La forme n'est chez lui jamais préalable.
English translation:
form is never set in stone
Added to glossary by
Philippa Smith
May 14, 2020 00:08
3 yrs ago
61 viewers *
French term
La forme n'est chez lui jamais préalable.
French to English
Art/Literary
Cinema, Film, TV, Drama
This is an excerpt from a review of a film and its director.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
May 25, 2020 21:49: Philippa Smith Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+1
10 hrs
Philippa Smith
Native in English
Specializes in field
29 years turning out perfect English
Native in: English (Variant: British) 
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English
Related KudoZ points
:
15
Selected
form is never set in stone
Suggestion based on the reference I found about Gus Van Sant's films:
"Et même dans ses œuvres les plus radicales, la forme n'est chez lui jamais préalable : elle est indissociable du type de rencontres que chaque film met en ..."
So "Even in his most radical work, form is never set in stone."
As I read it, the writer is saying that Van Sant doesn't stick to one form when making his films, that his choice of form is a shifting thing which depends on the relationships he is exploring within the film.
Another option could be "predetermined" but I don't feel the "pre-" notion has to made explicit: if his choice is not set in stone, that implies that he has not decided beforehand what it will be then stuck to that decision...
"Et même dans ses œuvres les plus radicales, la forme n'est chez lui jamais préalable : elle est indissociable du type de rencontres que chaque film met en ..."
So "Even in his most radical work, form is never set in stone."
As I read it, the writer is saying that Van Sant doesn't stick to one form when making his films, that his choice of form is a shifting thing which depends on the relationships he is exploring within the film.
Another option could be "predetermined" but I don't feel the "pre-" notion has to made explicit: if his choice is not set in stone, that implies that he has not decided beforehand what it will be then stuck to that decision...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
writeaway
: like it. doesn't sound like translationese and really fits in well with the text at hand.
1 hr
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Thanks a lot!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
8 mins
ABDESSAMAD BINAOUI
Morocco
Morocco
Native in French
&
English
Morocco
A Ph.D. at your service!
Native in: English (Variants: US, UK) 
, Arabic (Variant: Moroccan) , French (Variants: Standard-France, Moroccan, African)
Works in: English to Arabic, Arabic to English, French to Arabic, and 14 more.
The form for him was never anticipated
It serves the meaning
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
writeaway
: so the form came as a surprise? no, it doesn't serve the meaning imo.
10 hrs
|
+9
28 mins
Reuben Wright
Canada
Canada
Native in English
Specializes in field
Canada
Always searching for meaning
Native in: English (Variants: Canadian, US, British)
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, English to French, and 3 more.
For him, form is never preset/a given/planned in advance/a prerequisite
The main idea is that "For him/it, form was never...X".
The beauty of this is you would analyze the grander context of what precedes and follows and substitute X with;
preset
a given
a prerequisite
his first concern
The last one is a little far from the source without more context, but you can get the idea.
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Note added at 31 mins (2020-05-14 00:40:15 GMT)
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"With him, form is never...X". Thiis structure also works.
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Note added at 1 hr (2020-05-14 01:08:53 GMT)
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is never "pre-established". Many good options.
The beauty of this is you would analyze the grander context of what precedes and follows and substitute X with;
preset
a given
a prerequisite
his first concern
The last one is a little far from the source without more context, but you can get the idea.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 31 mins (2020-05-14 00:40:15 GMT)
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"With him, form is never...X". Thiis structure also works.
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Note added at 1 hr (2020-05-14 01:08:53 GMT)
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is never "pre-established". Many good options.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Joshua Parker
: "prerequisite" gets my vote, but I agree it would be helpful to have more context! The present perfect could also work: "form has never been a prerequisite..."
51 mins
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Thank you!
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| agree |
Barbara Cochran, MFA
: I like " a given" or "planned in advance".
1 hr
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Thank you, I am partial to "a given".
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| agree |
philgoddard
2 hrs
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Thank you
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| agree |
Tony M
: Or even, "he never starts off from the form", which may be more applicable in a film context
5 hrs
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Thank you.
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| agree |
Helene Tammik
6 hrs
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Thank you.
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| agree |
erwan-l
7 hrs
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Thank you.
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| agree |
Marian Vieyra
: For me, 'never a given' is preferable.
7 hrs
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Thank you.
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| agree |
Saro Nova
: I like "never a given" very much. See my note about syntax as well. If you combine the two, you have it, methinks!
9 hrs
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Thank you.
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| agree |
Yolanda Broad
1 day 19 hrs
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8 hrs
For him, form is never predefined.
I agree with Reuben's suggestions, with a preference for 'planned in advance', but I feel 'predefined' would be more succint.
9 hrs
Form is never a preset/requisite for him.
Some of the other suggestions are good, however, for syntax it is best to put the object at the end of the sentence. Otherwise, it sounds colloquial, more like speaking. Just saying!
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Note added at 9 hrs (2020-05-14 09:54:22 GMT)
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"Never a given" - instead of preset, or (pre-)requisite works better.
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Note added at 9 hrs (2020-05-14 09:54:22 GMT)
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"Never a given" - instead of preset, or (pre-)requisite works better.
1 hr
Francois Boye
United States
United States
Native in French
United States
An economic geek with social skills
Native in: French
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
For him, no form is a starting point
my take
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Note added at 14 hrs (2020-05-14 14:40:16 GMT)
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Erratum: NO ESTABLISHED FORM instead of no form
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Note added at 14 hrs (2020-05-14 14:40:16 GMT)
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Erratum: NO ESTABLISHED FORM instead of no form
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Reuben Wright
: This syntax is unidiomatic. Your idea could work as; "Form has never been his starting point."
6 mins
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explanation: he started from cratch; he does not abide by a standard..//see above
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| neutral |
Tony M
: The trouble is, this doesn't mean the same as 'he doesn't have any form as his starting point', which I think is what you are trying to say; it makes it sound as if he goes out of his way to eschew any kind of form...
3 days 14 hrs
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19 hrs
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
experienced and well qualified linguist
Native in: English (Variant: UK)
Works in: Spanish to English, English, Spanish, and 3 more.
Convention is never a priority for him.
'la forme' means 'shape' or 'form' but it can also translate as the 'convention' . I suggest 'convention' instead of 'form' in the sentence. 'Chez lui' may also mean 'at his home'.
Definitions for 'prealable' are 'preliminary' , 'prior' or 'pre-condition'. I chose priority as I think it looks better in the sentence.
Definitions for 'prealable' are 'preliminary' , 'prior' or 'pre-condition'. I chose priority as I think it looks better in the sentence.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Saro Nova
: I like CONVENTION, and it may be more appropriate, depending on the greater context. Not sure if priority is best though! Maybe "pre-condition, or "not a give".
14 hrs
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| neutral |
Tony M
: On a film-making context, I don't think 'convention' works: I believe this is very literally about the 'form' the film takes
2 days 20 hrs
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3 days 15 hrs
He doesn't adhere to (any form of) convention
Hello
yes, I've "borrowed" Lisa's "convention" (credit to her) and kept form in the process but this could be dropped
Also used a verb that we often use with "convention".
yes, I've "borrowed" Lisa's "convention" (credit to her) and kept form in the process but this could be dropped
Also used a verb that we often use with "convention".
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Tony M
: I wouldn't take the interprettaion of 'forme' here in the direction of 'convention'; I believe in this context, 'form' opposes 'content': he doesn't start out with the 'shape' of the film in his mind, but captures the 'content' first and shapes it later.
26 mins
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That's an interesting view and you've got me doubting myself now
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Discussion
Et même dans ses œuvres les plus radicales, la forme n'est chez lui jamais préalable : elle est indissociable du type de rencontres que chaque film met en ...
https://books.google.fr/books?id=wpnrTYt5hA4C&pg=PT2&lpg=PT2...