Oct 26, 2023 09:43
7 mos ago
21 viewers *
French term
United Kingdom
Works in: French to English
Principe d'indisponibilité de l'état de la personne
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
The following goods are excluded under a marine cargo insurance policy: 'les marchandises immatérielles / matérielles liées au principe d’indisponibilité du corps humain et au **principe d’indisponibilité de l’état de la personne**'.
The expression is used as follows on https://www.observatoire-des-transidentites.com/2011/06/ but I don't know whether there is an English equivalent: 'La Cour de cassation en France y répond d’abord par le principe d’indisponibilité de l’état de la personne (vous ne pouvez disposez de vous-même)'.
Thanks in advance if you're able to help me!
The expression is used as follows on https://www.observatoire-des-transidentites.com/2011/06/ but I don't know whether there is an English equivalent: 'La Cour de cassation en France y répond d’abord par le principe d’indisponibilité de l’état de la personne (vous ne pouvez disposez de vous-même)'.
Thanks in advance if you're able to help me!
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 | rule against any change in pre-determined (personal or corporate) status |
Adrian MM.
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| 3 +1 | principle of inalienability of a person's legal personality |
Mpoma
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Proposed translations
2 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
359
Selected
rule against any change in pre-determined (personal or corporate) status
Again, de nouveau and de novo, the answer picked in the first weblinked ProZ precuror is iffy / questionable.
principe : pricniple; (general) rule, Bridge.
indisponibilité : inalienability, Navarre.
Second weblink: not relevant to this question, except from a syntactical point of view.
Possible application: the consignors or shippers actina qua / as an ordinary or general partnership with unlimited liability at the start of the ocean-going voyage cannot - on espying a prospective act of piracy - change to a (BrE) limited company (AmE) corporation half-way through to dodge liability: person = natural or legal person.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2023-10-26 12:20:25 GMT)
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acting qua : the latter inserted for 'lovers' of Latin.
principe : pricniple; (general) rule, Bridge.
indisponibilité : inalienability, Navarre.
Second weblink: not relevant to this question, except from a syntactical point of view.
Possible application: the consignors or shippers actina qua / as an ordinary or general partnership with unlimited liability at the start of the ocean-going voyage cannot - on espying a prospective act of piracy - change to a (BrE) limited company (AmE) corporation half-way through to dodge liability: person = natural or legal person.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2023-10-26 12:20:25 GMT)
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acting qua : the latter inserted for 'lovers' of Latin.
Example sentence:
le principe d'indisponibilité de l'état de la personne: « principe essentiel du droit français » selon lequel un individu ne pourrait disposer de manière pleine et entière de sa personnalité juridique, ni un tiers pour lui.
Conversion of a civil law partnership to a general or limited partnership by transfer of assets
Reference:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/3639356-principe-dindisponibilité.html
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Right idea, but adding "pre-determined" sounds OTT
6 hrs
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Another trivial and petty criticism, e.g. status can change and it does you no credit to agree with a manifestly unworkable answer.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks very much to all who took the time to answer and comment!"
+1
6 hrs
principle of inalienability of a person's legal personality
There's what seems a good article on this principle on the French Wikipédia : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indisponibilité_de_l'état_des_... . This shows, to put it bluntly, that the whole thing is mired in confusion, at least in France.
Of course this is Wikipédia so further research may be needed.
The first paragraph is quite clearly written. Note the distinction made with "... les règles de l’immutabilité et de l’imprescriptibilité de l’état des personnes". As I read things, indisponibility/inalienability basically means you're stuck with certain aspects of your legal personality - although the article claims that in practice things don't work like that, and in fact never have.
As has been said, on the fact of it it seems at best incongruous and at worst ludicrous that a cargo policy should be stipulating things relating to this principle. But there you go. There may be a rational explanation.
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Note added at 6 heures (2023-10-26 15:56:28 GMT)
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*** face of it
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Note added at 6 heures (2023-10-26 16:22:38 GMT)
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PS just saw Adrian's illuminating note in the previous question distinguishing between "principle" and "doctrine". Here he uses "rule" and I think that "rule" or "principle" is preferable in view of the fact that the actual functioning of French law (according to that Vikip article) does not conform to this ... theoretical notion about how it should.
Of course this is Wikipédia so further research may be needed.
The first paragraph is quite clearly written. Note the distinction made with "... les règles de l’immutabilité et de l’imprescriptibilité de l’état des personnes". As I read things, indisponibility/inalienability basically means you're stuck with certain aspects of your legal personality - although the article claims that in practice things don't work like that, and in fact never have.
As has been said, on the fact of it it seems at best incongruous and at worst ludicrous that a cargo policy should be stipulating things relating to this principle. But there you go. There may be a rational explanation.
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Note added at 6 heures (2023-10-26 15:56:28 GMT)
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*** face of it
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 heures (2023-10-26 16:22:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
PS just saw Adrian's illuminating note in the previous question distinguishing between "principle" and "doctrine". Here he uses "rule" and I think that "rule" or "principle" is preferable in view of the fact that the actual functioning of French law (according to that Vikip article) does not conform to this ... theoretical notion about how it should.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: "entity" for "person"? i.e. so as to cover legal entities; or even simply "inalienability of legal personality"?
1 hr
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Thanks. Just re-read the Vikip art. in light of your comment. Seems to be specific to natural persons: "... selon lequel un **individu** ne pourrait disposer de manière pleine et entière de ..."
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Discussion
Here's the Wikipedia article Mpoma refers to:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indisponibilité_de_l'état_des_p...
But as Phil says, the whole cover exclusion thing in a maritime cargo context doesn't make any sense. Tend to agree with Bourth: probably thrown in for good measure to cover their ânes just in case someone made a ludicrous claim about a hand-written manuscript lost at sea when a ship went down.