Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
barrel vs. cask vs. keg of beer
English answer:
barrel or cask but not keg
Added to glossary by
Marek Daroszewski (MrMarDar)
Oct 5, 2004 11:49
19 yrs ago
12 viewers *
English term
barrel vs. cask vs. keg of beer
English
Art/Literary
Linguistics
Could anyone help me find the best word... In the source text I am translating (on beer containers and packs) reference is made to the concept of "barrel" used to store beer ca. 1000 years ago. The doubt I have is whether to use the word "barrel" or rather "cask", or maybe still another word. How should one call the vessel used to store beer 10 centuries ago. Just to make myself clear - I am not asking what it was stored in, rather what word should be used.
TIA
TIA
Responses
| 4 +8 | barrel or cask but not keg |
Deborah Workman
|
| 3 +2 | container |
David Moore (X)
|
| 3 +1 | tun |
jccantrell
|
| 4 | 'tun' (second choice 'barrel', although not in English 1000yrs ago) |
DGK T-I
|
| 3 | Firkin |
J. Leo (X)
|
Responses
+8
9 mins
Deborah Workman
United States
United States
Native in English
&
English
United States
Telecom/new media tech, law, bus, mktg
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, Portuguese to English, French to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
8
Selected
barrel or cask but not keg
Barrel gets the most hits. Cask is a distant but respectable second. See examples at http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=beer 12th ... and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=beer 12th ...
I'm not enough of an authority to know that keg is incorrect, but I believe that the word "keg" is commonly associated with the metal containers that are used today in restaurants are rented to college students for the infamous "keg parties".
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Note added at 46 mins (2004-10-05 12:35:25 GMT)
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IN RESPONSE TO YOUR QUESTION, MEDIEVAL BEER WOULD BE STORED IN BARRELS.
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Note added at 1 hr 13 mins (2004-10-05 13:02:57 GMT)
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Note that the links that I gave you include references to the 12th century in an effort to get closer to what is appropriate. If you want to connote a wooden container of the familiar barrel/cask shape, then barrel or cask are safer than keg because of the modern-day association with \"keg\". Barrel is the older of the terms based on Dusty\'s comment.
1000 years ago is 1400. That\'s the 15th century. If your question is exactly what did people call these barrels/casks in medieval times, I\'m not an authority. Here are some links about medieval brewing. You\'ll learn a lot about the history. The term barrel is used http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=beer conta... . Don\'t be confused by the \"cauldron\" in which the beer is prepared before being stored. And don\'t be confused by the bottling/kegging terminology in the recipes, which are written for modern homebrewers. By the way, the people who used to make the stave-built vessels (i.e., barrels) for medieval brewers were called coopers.
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Note added at 1 hr 18 mins (2004-10-05 13:08:07 GMT)
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If you are trying to convey a generic concept, \"barrel\" is fine. If you are describing a technique specific to a kind of beer in a particular country, then you probably should use the original terminology of the country and craft and the period, with a parenthetical statement in English (\"a kind of XXX\").
I'm not enough of an authority to know that keg is incorrect, but I believe that the word "keg" is commonly associated with the metal containers that are used today in restaurants are rented to college students for the infamous "keg parties".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 46 mins (2004-10-05 12:35:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
IN RESPONSE TO YOUR QUESTION, MEDIEVAL BEER WOULD BE STORED IN BARRELS.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 13 mins (2004-10-05 13:02:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Note that the links that I gave you include references to the 12th century in an effort to get closer to what is appropriate. If you want to connote a wooden container of the familiar barrel/cask shape, then barrel or cask are safer than keg because of the modern-day association with \"keg\". Barrel is the older of the terms based on Dusty\'s comment.
1000 years ago is 1400. That\'s the 15th century. If your question is exactly what did people call these barrels/casks in medieval times, I\'m not an authority. Here are some links about medieval brewing. You\'ll learn a lot about the history. The term barrel is used http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=beer conta... . Don\'t be confused by the \"cauldron\" in which the beer is prepared before being stored. And don\'t be confused by the bottling/kegging terminology in the recipes, which are written for modern homebrewers. By the way, the people who used to make the stave-built vessels (i.e., barrels) for medieval brewers were called coopers.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 18 mins (2004-10-05 13:08:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
If you are trying to convey a generic concept, \"barrel\" is fine. If you are describing a technique specific to a kind of beer in a particular country, then you probably should use the original terminology of the country and craft and the period, with a parenthetical statement in English (\"a kind of XXX\").
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
: Well, OED gives barrel as Middle English, cask as early 16th c. and keg as early 17th c. 'a small barrel' // :-)))
5 mins
|
|
Then for ca. 1000 yrs ago, we must "roll out the barrel" :-) and roll away the cask and keg! Thanks.
|
|
| agree |
Tehani
28 mins
|
| agree |
Lisa Russell
1 hr
|
| agree |
Aisha Rishi
1 hr
|
| agree |
Vladimir Dubisskiy
: barrel (and size matters)
3 hrs
|
| agree |
mrrobkoc
4 hrs
|
| agree |
nlingua
: hat's off to dusty's research too
5 hrs
|
| agree |
Rajan Chopra
23 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you all. I have used "barrel". Also on the basis of this link (http://www.fatbadgers.co.uk/Britain/casks.htm). "
+2
34 mins
container
Browsing the web to find out more about mediaeval beer, I could not find any specific references to barrels, casks OR kegs, and I wonder if the fact that (as Dusty says) the words are much more recent than 1,000 years old means that another word altogether was used?
In Egypt, for example, they probably used an amphora (or whatever it was called by the Egyptians) or some similar container. It should be remembered that the old-style beer was brewed without hops, and also may not have been stored under pressure. Wine was certainly kept in such flasks. Hence "container" as a generic term?
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Note added at 38 mins (2004-10-05 12:27:50 GMT)
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The problem even with \"barrel\" as middle Emglish is, that is usually dated 14th-15th. centuries, so \"only\" 700 years old at the most....
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Note added at 57 mins (2004-10-05 12:47:10 GMT)
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or even \"middle E*N*glish\"??
In Egypt, for example, they probably used an amphora (or whatever it was called by the Egyptians) or some similar container. It should be remembered that the old-style beer was brewed without hops, and also may not have been stored under pressure. Wine was certainly kept in such flasks. Hence "container" as a generic term?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 38 mins (2004-10-05 12:27:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The problem even with \"barrel\" as middle Emglish is, that is usually dated 14th-15th. centuries, so \"only\" 700 years old at the most....
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 57 mins (2004-10-05 12:47:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
or even \"middle E*N*glish\"??
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Aisha Maniar
: I agree with your explanation and yes, 1000yrs ago, it was OE, not ME: in support of "containers": "After fermentation, the ale would be sealed in stone jars or wooden containers and self condition for a further few weeks before being ready to drink. "
1 hr
|
| agree |
Aisha Rishi
1 hr
|
+1
2 hrs
jccantrell
United States
United States
Native in English
&
English
United States
Was nicht ist, kann noch werden.
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
Works in: German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
31
tun
While tun is usually connected with wine today, it does have a spot in beermaking, viz. the mash tun and the lauter tun.
See the link.
See the link.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
DGK T-I
: Tun is excellent - from Old English(Anglo-Saxon,1000yrs.ago plus:-)"tunne"(a large barrel)-the complete OED says this word is recorded 1300yrs ago and is in several European languages ~
22 hrs
|
3 hrs
Firkin
Another possibility, depending on context.
It may come from Middle Dutch about 1200-1500AD
I agree with Konstantin.
It may come from Middle Dutch about 1200-1500AD
I agree with Konstantin.
Reference:
1 day 1 hr
'tun' (second choice 'barrel', although not in English 1000yrs ago)
As you see, "tun" is very old (use recorded 1300 yrs ago, and 1200 yrs ago in Old English (Anglo-Saxon).
"tun
1. A large cask or barrel, usually for liquids, esp. wine, ale, or beer, or for various provisions. Now less common than cask.
[OE. tunne, wk. fem., ME. tunne, later tonne; cogn. with OFris. tunne, tonne, OLG. *tunna (MLG., LG. tunne (tünne)), MDu. tonne (Du. ton), OHG. tunna (MHG. tunne, Ger. tonne); late ON. tunna (Sw. tunna, mod.Norw. tunna, tynna, MDu. tunde, Da. tønde); also med.L. tunna (9th c. in Cassel Gloss.), OF. tonne, Pr. tona (in other Rom. langs. only in derivative forms: see TONNEL, TUNNEL); also MIr., Ir. and Gael. tunna. Origin uncertain; app. not orig. Latin or Romanic.
As the OHG. retains initial t it must have been adopted (from LG. or med.L.) after the HG. sound shifting, i.e. after 700. Some suggest a Celtic source, viz. OIr. toun hide, skin, so that the original sense would be ‘wine-skin’; but the MIr. tunna looks like an adopted word. At present it can only be said that the word appears to be as old or older in the LG. group of langs., including OE., than anywhere else; its occurrence in the Corpus Gloss c 725 is app. the earliest trace of the word in any lang. The later ME. spelling tonne was perh. after F., but prob. largely due to the scribal fashion of writing o for u, in contiguity to m, n, v, etc., as in son, tongue, honey, come, some, above, love etc. From c 1688 the two forms tun and ton have been differentiated in use: see TON1.]"
Complete Oxford English Dictionary (online)
My second choice would be barrel - although this wdoesn't seem to have come into English until the 1300's (Middle English). However it comes from medieval Latin in the 900's - I presume it was used on the continent prior to 1066 and brought to England by the Normans, who continued to use it in Norman French until it entered English with the merging of the two languages in the 1300's, but that's supposition on my part.
OED
barrel
"1. a. A cylindrical wooden vessel, generally bulging in the middle and of greater length than breadth, formed of curved staves bound together by hoops, and having flat ends or heads; a cask.
[a. F. baril (12th c. in Littrè) = Pr., Pg., Sp. barril, It. barile, med.L. barile, barillus, baurilis (9th c.); cf. also barrale ‘a cask, a measure of liquids’ Du Cange: of unknown origin; Diez thinks possibly a deriv. of barra, BAR n.1 The Celtic words (Welsh baril, Gael. baraill, Ir. bairile, Manx barrel) sometimes cited as the source, are all from English.]"
http://www.budweiser-beer.net/barrel_history.htm
gives a fascinating history of the barrel/tun, going back to Gallic and ancient Celtic times. Well worth the read.
"At around 350 B.C. the Celts elaborated rounded watertight recipients that were able to withstand stress (from rolling) and weight (from stacking)."
Also there is:
"(Britain, Gaul)...Sucellus. "The God of the Mallet"; "Good Striker"; Father God; Sky god. Bearded; similar to Jupiter. Associated with dogs and carried a mallet or hammer. God of abundance; success, strength, authority, protection, regeneration, dogs, trees, ravens, protector against a sudden turn of fortune. God of agriculture and forests, and of alcoholic beverages
(he is often shown carrying a beer barrel suspended from a pole)"
I haven't checked the reliabilty of the reference (or looked for original pictures), but archaeology and history programmes seem happy to use the word barrel when describing tun/barrel type containers.
But I like 'tun' for a barrel, because it has the oldest history in English.
http://www.budweiser-beer.net/barrel_history.htm
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Note added at 1 day 7 hrs 44 mins (2004-10-06 19:33:28 GMT)
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The earliest uses of \'cask\' in English given by the OED date from the 1500\'s, although like barrel archaeologists and historians seem happy to use it to describe older barrel/tun/cask type containers.
"tun
1. A large cask or barrel, usually for liquids, esp. wine, ale, or beer, or for various provisions. Now less common than cask.
[OE. tunne, wk. fem., ME. tunne, later tonne; cogn. with OFris. tunne, tonne, OLG. *tunna (MLG., LG. tunne (tünne)), MDu. tonne (Du. ton), OHG. tunna (MHG. tunne, Ger. tonne); late ON. tunna (Sw. tunna, mod.Norw. tunna, tynna, MDu. tunde, Da. tønde); also med.L. tunna (9th c. in Cassel Gloss.), OF. tonne, Pr. tona (in other Rom. langs. only in derivative forms: see TONNEL, TUNNEL); also MIr., Ir. and Gael. tunna. Origin uncertain; app. not orig. Latin or Romanic.
As the OHG. retains initial t it must have been adopted (from LG. or med.L.) after the HG. sound shifting, i.e. after 700. Some suggest a Celtic source, viz. OIr. toun hide, skin, so that the original sense would be ‘wine-skin’; but the MIr. tunna looks like an adopted word. At present it can only be said that the word appears to be as old or older in the LG. group of langs., including OE., than anywhere else; its occurrence in the Corpus Gloss c 725 is app. the earliest trace of the word in any lang. The later ME. spelling tonne was perh. after F., but prob. largely due to the scribal fashion of writing o for u, in contiguity to m, n, v, etc., as in son, tongue, honey, come, some, above, love etc. From c 1688 the two forms tun and ton have been differentiated in use: see TON1.]"
Complete Oxford English Dictionary (online)
My second choice would be barrel - although this wdoesn't seem to have come into English until the 1300's (Middle English). However it comes from medieval Latin in the 900's - I presume it was used on the continent prior to 1066 and brought to England by the Normans, who continued to use it in Norman French until it entered English with the merging of the two languages in the 1300's, but that's supposition on my part.
OED
barrel
"1. a. A cylindrical wooden vessel, generally bulging in the middle and of greater length than breadth, formed of curved staves bound together by hoops, and having flat ends or heads; a cask.
[a. F. baril (12th c. in Littrè) = Pr., Pg., Sp. barril, It. barile, med.L. barile, barillus, baurilis (9th c.); cf. also barrale ‘a cask, a measure of liquids’ Du Cange: of unknown origin; Diez thinks possibly a deriv. of barra, BAR n.1 The Celtic words (Welsh baril, Gael. baraill, Ir. bairile, Manx barrel) sometimes cited as the source, are all from English.]"
http://www.budweiser-beer.net/barrel_history.htm
gives a fascinating history of the barrel/tun, going back to Gallic and ancient Celtic times. Well worth the read.
"At around 350 B.C. the Celts elaborated rounded watertight recipients that were able to withstand stress (from rolling) and weight (from stacking)."
Also there is:
"(Britain, Gaul)...Sucellus. "The God of the Mallet"; "Good Striker"; Father God; Sky god. Bearded; similar to Jupiter. Associated with dogs and carried a mallet or hammer. God of abundance; success, strength, authority, protection, regeneration, dogs, trees, ravens, protector against a sudden turn of fortune. God of agriculture and forests, and of alcoholic beverages
(he is often shown carrying a beer barrel suspended from a pole)"
I haven't checked the reliabilty of the reference (or looked for original pictures), but archaeology and history programmes seem happy to use the word barrel when describing tun/barrel type containers.
But I like 'tun' for a barrel, because it has the oldest history in English.
http://www.budweiser-beer.net/barrel_history.htm
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Note added at 1 day 7 hrs 44 mins (2004-10-06 19:33:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The earliest uses of \'cask\' in English given by the OED date from the 1500\'s, although like barrel archaeologists and historians seem happy to use it to describe older barrel/tun/cask type containers.
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