Dec 16, 2021 14:32
2 yrs ago
109 viewers *
French term

titulaire d'un Office Notarial

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) Notaries (France)
PARDEVANT Maître xxx Notaire Associé de la Société Civile Professionnelle dénommée «yyy et associés notaires à NICE » titulaire d'un Office Notarial à NICE, zz avenue bbbb

I know this has been posted several time before but I am looking for an authoritative answer if possible.

Does this mean that Maître xxx holds "the office of Notary" (i.e. the necessary certificate to practice) or does it mean that he simply operates a Notary's office in Nice?

Discussion

Yvonne Gallagher Dec 16, 2021:
@ Asker agree with Phil. I also think that Tony makes a point in the previous answer though it's fairly obvious, since location is given, that this SCP 'dénommée yyy et associés notaires' is French notarial. So there's no chance of confusing it with English notaries.
philgoddard Dec 16, 2021:
I think we've dealt with this pretty comprehensively before. It means both - they operate a business there, whose address is given in your extract, and they obviously have to be certified in order to do so.
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/4789...

There's rarely a truly "authoritative" answer - we just reach a consensus on what we think is the best.

Proposed translations

+2
3 hrs
Selected

holder of a Notarial Office

Something of chercher midi à quinze heures?

Bridge confirms that "office" does indeed mean an "office" in the sense of some authorised position within the judicial machinery. .

I thought initially office that it absolutely never has the meaning of "a physical office" in French.

But I just double-checked at TLFi. This is the definition which applies: "Fonction publique de justice, de finances, conférée à vie pour laquelle le titulaire a le droit de présenter des successeurs."

However, under 4., which says "par Méton." (metonymy I presume, i.e. clearly indicating a derived use), we see this, however:
"Établissement où s'effectue une activité particulière; p. ext. lieu de travail." But the clue that indicates that it can't be this is that you don't détenir a physical location. It would typically be gérer or organiser.

Office also means "pantry" or "bultery". I think "holder of a notarial pantry" would be more accurate than "holder of a notarial office premises".

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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-12-16 17:36:57 GMT)
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"butlery"

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Note added at 5 hrs (2021-12-16 19:34:12 GMT)
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PS I rather like the idea of a notarial pantry. I bet there's some nice stuff in there, fine Bourgognes, truffles, fabulous smelly cheeses, etc. Notaries have a rep of being dry and passionless, but I bet many of them are gourmands en cachette.
Note from asker:
Thank you. I imagine the promise of Christmas culinary indulgence is affecting your ability to translate.
Peer comment(s):

agree Daryo
6 hrs
Thanks
agree writeaway : I just checked here now to see if it could possibly mean anything else. For once the obvious actually works
46 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-3
40 mins

holds the office

La loi n° 90-1259 du 31 décembre 1990 a instauré les NOTAIRES SALARIÉS : CES NOTAIRES NE SONT PAS TITULAIRES D'OFFICE, n'ont pas de clientèle, mais EXERCENT LEUR PROFESSION DANS LE CADRE D'UN CONTRAT DE TRAVAIL AVEC UN NOTAIRE TITULAIRE de charge. En d'autres termes, le notaire salarié est un notaire avec un statut présentant des particularités, puisqu'il exerce son travail sous la subordination économique et juridique du notaire titulaire de l'office, avec, par voie de conséquence, des prérogatives fortement amputées.
https://www.defrenois.fr/actualites/des-notaires-salaries


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Note added at 7 hrs (2021-12-16 22:03:21 GMT)
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OK, I was confusing the two types of notarial SCP. There's the 'SCP intégrée' which itself is 'titulaire d'un office notarial' and in which all or none of the partners may or may not be themselves 'titulaires d'un office', and there is the 'SCP non intégrée' aka less formally 'société de notaires' in which all the partners are 'titulaires' and the SCP is not. Both can have 'notaires salariés' who have no effect on the liability of the company (in the first case) or of the partners (in the second).

"Il faut distinguer la SCP intégrée à la profession, titulaire d’un office notarial, de la SCP non intégrée, dénommée « société de notaires » 26 où les associés restent titulaires de leurs offices27. La société de notaires n’est pas nommée notaire28. Elle ne peut pas faire l’objet de sanctions disciplinaires29. Les associés n’instrumentent pas au nom de la société30 ; ils exercent leur activité en leur nom propre31. Ils conservent leur droit de présentation et peuvent reprendre l’exercice individuel de leur fonction en se retirant de la société, ce que ne peuvent pas faire les associés de la SCP intégrée3"

So in your formulation, and in the absence of a comma which may or may not be intentional, you have no way of knowing.
Note from asker:
Thank you
Peer comment(s):

neutral writeaway : see dbox. https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/478...
9 mins
See SCP intégrée / non intégrée above.
disagree mchd : Dans le contexte, le notaire n'est qu'associé et c'est la SCP qui est titulaire de l'office notarial//Votre "rajout" porte sur un autre contexte, citer la source permet de lever le doute !
24 mins
Pas forcément, voir mon rajout.
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : "c'est la SCP qui est titulaire de l'office notarial" and you've omitted "notaire"//yes clear from another question the SCP is indeed the holder
1 hr
See my addition above (SCP intégrée / non intégrée).
disagree Mpoma : même remarque as Yvonne: you haven't said anything about how omitting "notarial" could be justifiable!
2 hrs
See my added comment above (SCP intégrée / non intégrée)
disagree Daryo : I can't see any reason to turn a noun (titulaire = holder) into a verb + where is "notarial" gone?
9 hrs
It's like those children's puzzles, you fill in the gaps on the basis of the information given.
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3 hrs
French term (edited): SCP ... titulaire d'un Office Notarial

+ Co ... holders of a Notarial Faculty to Practise

It's un office, namely une 'charge' rather than the faux ami of une Office, like a Post Office.

The Notary's practice is called une The Notaire's office (Ėtude) as opposed to the études required to qualify as one 'and depends geographically on the area in which he lives. Contrast this with the appointment of an English notary which is made by the faculty office of the Archbishop of Canterbury.'

Not does it help for the previous ProZ questions to be mis-spelt Office Notariat.

Note that any answer given without reference to Brooke's Notary as the Notarial 'Bible', hint, hint, cut to City Scrivener Wordwatcher, might well be considered 'per incuriam': section 3-04 : 'applicant ... to the Master of the Faculties... for a faculty to practise overseas'.

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Note added at 8 hrs (2021-12-16 22:45:33 GMT)
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To the asker: you can alway susbstitute Licenc/se to Practise for faculty. As I will reiterate to Mpoma - no doubt to howls of protest - notaries inhouse at our translation office in London, or out-of-house at lectures to broad-minded translators and interpreters, rather than to narrow-minded lawyers: Attorneys and Barristers, even QCS - explained the whole phrase as : 'licensed and authorized to practise as Notaries'. I'm afraid I can't recall the exact wording.
Example sentence:

(in civil law systems- 'notary') a holder of a public office with jurisdiction on non-contentious private law matters (family law, wills, inheritance, property law, commercial law, company incorporation, etc.).

Declaration of Office 1, N.P., do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm that I will faithfully exercise the office of a Public Notary;

Note from asker:
I like the pluralisation to "holders" which eminently makes sense since the whole partnership "holds" the status; not sure about copying anglocentric "faculty" though
Peer comment(s):

neutral Mpoma : Hmmm. See my answer: an office notarial is an official position within the judicial machinery, moreover one for which you can suggest a successor (or not if you're feeling mean).
4 mins
One problem is that Office is ambiguous, though both my example sentences refer to a Notary's public office. Our City Scrivener-Linguist Notaries used approx. 'Licensed to practise as Notaries'. Good succession point vs. UK Commissioners for Oaths.
neutral Daryo : ***can't be*** in plural - there is ONLY ONE "holder", although it's not clear if it's this one notary personally or "la Société Civile Professionnelle" as a legal person.
6 hrs
Pls. read the asker's endorsement of the plural form. The partnership is the holder, as the members may well change. 'English law has maintained the “aggregate” approach to partnership' : pluralised as litigants in the London Hgh Ct. + 'trading as a firm'
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