| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Saudi translator seeks apology for embassy incident
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| | Mary Stefan 
United States
Local time: 13:04
Italian to English
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| Inside the desert kingdom | Aug 3, 2010 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Mary Stefan wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
Regardless of whether the translator's version of the events is accurate, the ambassador has to make amends. His religion requires it. What does religion have to do with the ambassador's amends? 1. At first read it seemed to me that the ambassador had used his religion as a reason for doing something or a reason for expecting a certain behaviour. If the ambassador is so keen to use his religion as an excuse for acting in a certain way towards this girl, then he should (unless he is a hypocrite) follow through by making amends. [To explain the logic: The christian religion is generally straight-forward but there are some twists in it. One of these twists is that if person A is angry at person B or if person A had sinned against person B, then the onus is not on person A to make amends, but on person B, who must seek amends to the point of bending over backwards for the sake of peace.] Religion doesn't have anything to do with amends, unless the parties involved involve religions themselves, which is what at first appeared to me to have happened here. 2. However, after I've mulled over the episode a bit, I came to the conclusion that when the ambassador said "I'm a christian" he probably didn't mean that his expectation is based on the fact that he is a christian -- in fact, his retort was probably just a sarcastic reply to indicate to the lady that he regarded her excuse (i.e. that she is a Muslim) as invalid. Mohamed Mehenoun wrote:
As for being on Australian soil I don't believe that she has to shake his hand to do her job, so it's up to her... 3. The question is: who is at fault here? I am aware that diplomats and ambassadors are quite strict on protocol, and if one works at an embassy, then protocol would be quite important. If the translator had breached protocol, regardless of her religious beliefs, and regardless of how reasonable the ambassador's demands were, then she is at fault. If she has religious beliefs that go against the protocol required by her job, then she has to decide which is more important to her -- her job or her god. I'm all in favour of women standing up for their rights, or for people of different religions demanding respect and tolerance, but sometimes one has to make an unpleasant decision about what to do with your life, if society hasn't caught up with your preferences yet. [Edited at 2010-08-03 15:01 GMT]
Samuel,
Thanks for the explanation. It was kind of you to develop.
I strongly believe that the ambassador's remark - while a bit ignorant, which comes as a surprise since all diplomats undergo training regarding the culture, traditions, language etc. of the host country before deployment to a new post - was sarcastic! While religion stands 100% behind all decisions in Saudi Arabia, the same is not valid for (i.e.) Australia. Both parties seemed to have forgotten this on the spur of the moment. I must side with the ambassador here as an embassy is a multicultural environment and shaking hands is definitely a very common thing in Australia. The translator should have expected it (or at least read about it) before accepting the job (pluses vs. minuses). She was working, after all, on Australian soil. As a woman, I understand and endorse women's rights (BTW, I'm loving "Half the sky"), but I can hardly believe that the translator's honor would have been stained had she made a small "amend" in this big wide world (in which numerous nationalities live) such as shaking hands with a foreign man in an embassy in which she chose to work willingly. Of course, as I'm not part of the mutaween in Saudi Arabia, my opinion is of little importance .
As for "Who is at fault here?", I vote for lack of cultural awareness (read: terrible reading habits), and different expectations: the ambassador assumed that the translator would shake hands with him, and the translator assumed that the ambassador would understand that, in the Muslim culture, a women does not usually shake hands with a man. Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Wouldn't the world be a better place if we all stuck to facts? (In which case, the translator should have accepted a different job).
This issue should be seen as part of a whole, not sliced out and discussed out of context.
So, how about that "cultural sensitivity training" that the translator herself suggested?!?
My regards from Dubai.
Mary
| | | | | @Mary and Mohamed | Aug 3, 2010 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Mary Stefan wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
Regardless of whether the translator's version of the events is accurate, the ambassador has to make amends. His religion requires it. What does religion have to do with the ambassador's amends? 1. At first read it seemed to me that the ambassador had used his religion as a reason for doing something or a reason for expecting a certain behaviour. If the ambassador is so keen to use his religion as an excuse for acting in a certain way towards this girl, then he should (unless he is a hypocrite) follow through by making amends. [To explain the logic: The christian religion is generally straight-forward but there are some twists in it. One of these twists is that if person A is angry at person B or if person A had sinned against person B, then the onus is not on person A to make amends, but on person B, who must seek amends to the point of bending over backwards for the sake of peace.] Religion doesn't have anything to do with amends, unless the parties involved involve religions themselves, which is what at first appeared to me to have happened here. 2. However, after I've mulled over the episode a bit, I came to the conclusion that when the ambassador said "I'm a christian" he probably didn't mean that his expectation is based on the fact that he is a christian -- in fact, his retort was probably just a sarcastic reply to indicate to the lady that he regarded her excuse (i.e. that she is a Muslim) as invalid. Mohamed Mehenoun wrote:
As for being on Australian soil I don't believe that she has to shake his hand to do her job, so it's up to her... 3. The question is: who is at fault here? I am aware that diplomats and ambassadors are quite strict on protocol, and if one works at an embassy, then protocol would be quite important. If the translator had breached protocol, regardless of her religious beliefs, and regardless of how reasonable the ambassador's demands were, then she is at fault. If she has religious beliefs that go against the protocol required by her job, then she has to decide which is more important to her -- her job or her god. I'm all in favour of women standing up for their rights, or for people of different religions demanding respect and tolerance, but sometimes one has to make an unpleasant decision about what to do with your life, if society hasn't caught up with your preferences yet. [Edited at 2010-08-03 15:01 GMT]
I would agree if he said "This is protocol do it or leave"...What I find infuriating is the use of religion here and there to justify what he wants her to do ...You can perceive it as you wish but the "I am christian" leaves a bad connotation at least for me, not that I have anything against christians...But in her shoes I would have felt belittled and infuriated...He is the ambassador of Australia and should justify his acts by the law of his country and not his religion... I do believe that as a human being he has the right to like or dislike this or that (religion and color included) however when you are on an official task you just swallow it or change your job as you said ! And I do believe that there is no law in any country binding her to shake hands...
[Edited at 2010-08-03 16:41 GMT]
| | | | | Compensation? | Aug 3, 2010 |
On the face of it, I would agree with the general premise that the ambassador showed a distinct lack of cultural (here, read: religious) sensitivity and/or a great deal of ignorance, and that he owes the woman a humble and profound apology for making her feel uncomfortable and embarrassing her.
I find it a little harder to believe that she actually thought his approach to shake her hand was an attempt to hit her (seems like a real non sequitur), but if he did indeed then take her to... See more On the face of it, I would agree with the general premise that the ambassador showed a distinct lack of cultural (here, read: religious) sensitivity and/or a great deal of ignorance, and that he owes the woman a humble and profound apology for making her feel uncomfortable and embarrassing her.
I find it a little harder to believe that she actually thought his approach to shake her hand was an attempt to hit her (seems like a real non sequitur), but if he did indeed then take her to task and threaten her over a handshake misunderstanding, that IMHO is absolutely outrageous and probably illegal (harassment, for one), and deserves a full investigation and, if true, strong censure if not removal from his post.
However, I would depart from an interpretation that he somehow volunteered his religious affiliation as any kind of comment about religiosity as an excuse/reason - he didn't let her get that far.
He was responding to her comment about being Muslim (and interrupting her - further bad manners) by saying "and I am a Christian", the 'and' (to me) showing that "it doesn't matter what religion you follow, it doesn't matter what religion I follow, let's shake hands". It could very well be that he was attempting (at that point) to be good-natured about it, but clearly missed that she was trying to communicate that it actually *did* matter to her.
Apart from the issue of whether someone should take a job whose expected duties or traditions clash with one's personal beliefs (see Jehovah's Witness litigation about refusing to sing "Happy Birthday"), what bothers me, however, is that the woman seems to be making a jump from the moral to the monetary.
Her claim that "taking into account the position [she] passed over ... he has to compensate me for all that as a result of his inconsiderate behaviour" smacks of an attempt at self-enrichment, although to be fair, the way the article is written, it's not 100% clear.
The question to me is what exactly she is claiming the damage was, how she may have "contributed"*, and what she actually should be compensated for.
The article says she "quietly left the room and the embassy" and that she "had passed up a better-paid two-year contract to take the embassy job."
*What's not clear (to me) is whether she attempted to return to the embassy at any other point in time to discuss the matter with anyone or resume her job, whether she made inquiries and statements to others (apart from the Foreign Minister/Prime Minister - was there no one in between? Even Human Resources to find out what the situation was on their end) - or did she simply give up and walk away for good?
Another key question is whether she was actually fired, or told not to come back, which would absolutely be compensable 'offenses'.
I certainly understand the demand for an apology and even the request that the ambassador be called on the carpet and 'sentenced' to sensitivity training. But unless she was subsequently forced out of her job without any chance of having the matter reviewed or discussed, I would find it a little more difficult to be sympathetic to an appeal for monetary compensation.
I'm also wondering the same thing Charlie asked, why is this just coming out now? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Religion as justification/Mohamed | Aug 3, 2010 |
Mohamed Mehenoun wrote:
I would agree if he said "This is protocol do it or leave"...What I find infuriating is the use of religion here and there to justify what he wants her to do
I think this is very likely a misinterpretation of his comment, which was not "I am a Christian", but "and I am a Christian".
Firstly, there is no way he is using his religion as a justification to pressure her into a handshake, because - although I am not expert - I do not believe the Christian religion dictates anything one way or another about handshakes. He would therefore have no basis for such justification.
Secondly, the and here is very important, in English it implies "and, so what?". (the answer would have been "so - I choose to follow the dictates of my religion, which forbids such contact", but according to her version she wasn't give the opportunity to respond)
The translator, however, was definitely using *her* religion as a justification for not adhering to cultural expectations of the "country" (Australian embassy) she was in. Whether or not the Prime Minister was actually aware of this seems to me to be unclear.
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| guys, are you | Aug 3, 2010 |
serious?
[Edited at 2010-08-03 17:24 GMT]
| | | | | May be but it's still awkward | Aug 3, 2010 |
Janet Rubin wrote: Mohamed Mehenoun wrote:
I would agree if he said "This is protocol do it or leave"...What I find infuriating is the use of religion here and there to justify what he wants her to do I think this is very likely a misinterpretation of his comment, which was not "I am a Christian", but " and I am a Christian". Firstly, there is no way he is using his religion as a justification to pressure her into a handshake, because - although I am not expert - I do not believe the Christian religion dictates anything one way or another about handshakes. He would therefore have no basis for such justification. Secondly, the and here is very important, in English it implies "and, so what?". (the answer would have been "so - I choose to follow the dictates of my religion, which forbids such contact", but according to her version she wasn't give the opportunity to respond) The translator, however, was definitely using *her* religion as a justification for not adhering to cultural expectations of the "country" (Australian embassy) she was in. Whether or not the Prime Minister was actually aware of this seems to me to be unclear.
She used her religion to justify her refusal of doing a gesture which is her right as long as the law doesn't force her to shake hands and as long as it's not a part of her job (and I believe that adhering to the cultural expectations of your employer isn't part of the job)... Don't forget that the embassy is in Saudi Arabia even though it's technically "Australian soil" and that they are hiring locals and they are bound in their contracts by the law of "Saudi Arabia"...
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Mohamed Mehenoun wrote:
She used her religion to justify her refusal of doing a gesture which is her right ... Don't forget that the embassy is in Saudi Arabia even though it's technically "Australian soil" ...
Please note I did not comment on the merits of her justification one way or another, just stated a fact.
[Edited at 2010-08-03 17:56 GMT]
| | | | Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:04
English to Latvian
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| Shaking hands with woman is not that simple even in western cultures. | Aug 3, 2010 |
As already hinted even in some Eastern European countries shaking hand with a (Christian) woman is not a common practice unless a woman shows an initiative. One can sometime commit faux pas due to ignorance and it can be very embarrassing to both parties but an ambassador should have a character and face his mistakes. Instead he became angry and was rude towards the woman because he was embarrassed for his mistake. Looks like the usual macho thing when a man blames women for his impotence.
... See more As already hinted even in some Eastern European countries shaking hand with a (Christian) woman is not a common practice unless a woman shows an initiative. One can sometime commit faux pas due to ignorance and it can be very embarrassing to both parties but an ambassador should have a character and face his mistakes. Instead he became angry and was rude towards the woman because he was embarrassed for his mistake. Looks like the usual macho thing when a man blames women for his impotence.
The psychology of reluctance to admit mistakes goes very deep indeed. Many wars have been made due to this human tendency.
[Edited at 2010-08-03 18:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Even neighbouring countries have different customs | Aug 3, 2010 |
Sawal wrote:
What would someone say if he/she was forced to a kiss (on the cheek of course) ?
Even close European countries have different customs when it comes to greetings...
If I remember correctly, Angela Merkel did not feel at ease with Sarkozy's habit of kissing her when they met.
Daniel
| | | | | cultural adaptation | Aug 3, 2010 |
Anyone can adapt to the culture of anyone, regardless of who lives where. It's called loving thy neighbor. And I know of no religion that forbids that. Sorry if this has little to do with translation, but I just gotta sound off on this. A little love and humility can go a long way in any context.
I live in Mexico and I wai to my Thai friend up the street. She loves it.
And if they can't or won't accomodate you, you can probably accomodate them.
And that Ch... See more Anyone can adapt to the culture of anyone, regardless of who lives where. It's called loving thy neighbor. And I know of no religion that forbids that. Sorry if this has little to do with translation, but I just gotta sound off on this. A little love and humility can go a long way in any context.
I live in Mexico and I wai to my Thai friend up the street. She loves it.
And if they can't or won't accomodate you, you can probably accomodate them.
And that Christian screamer's behavior was anything but Christian. For that matter, is was probably anything but Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or anything else, either, as far as I know. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I didn't say you did | Aug 3, 2010 |
Janet Rubin wrote: Mohamed Mehenoun wrote:
She used her religion to justify her refusal of doing a gesture which is her right ... Don't forget that the embassy is in Saudi Arabia even though it's technically "Australian soil" ... Please note I did not comment on the merits of her justification one way or another, just stated a fact. [Edited at 2010-08-03 17:56 GMT]
I'm just explaining my point of view...And I am in no way blaming it on Christianity...
| | | | Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:04
English to Latvian
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| abuse of diplomatic immunity? | Aug 3, 2010 |
Mohamed Mehenoun wrote:
Don't forget that the embassy is in Saudi Arabia even though it's technically "Australian soil" and that they are hiring locals and they are bound in their contracts by the law of "Saudi Arabia"...
It may not be completely true or at least it may not be enforceable. There is such a thing as diplomatic immunity which is a necessary safeguard for ambassadors in non-friendly countries. But the widespread abuse of this privilege including avoiding responsibility for deaths caused by drunk driving is a big problem.
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| Saudi translator seeks apology for embassy incident | Aug 4, 2010 |
Mohamed Mehenoun wrote: He was in Saudi Arabia he had to respect her culture ! You don't expect people to apply your culture in their homeland ! Philippe Etienne wrote:
... in western cultures... Even if it was true, I don't see why she should do it his way and wipe out her beliefs in her own country. Serious offense or not, I don't see why she should indulge him while he should show the courtesy of respecting the country where he is... I believe that when you go to a foreign country YOU have to respect the local culture (especially if you are an ambassador) and that's what I always do in all my trips to foreign countries. I do believe that it's common sense or else just stay at home... Plus "And I am Christian. Shake my hand!" is plain stupid who cares what or who you are ! She believes in what she believes... Some people are just jerks ! [Edited at 2010-08-02 22:14 GMT]
It is true that cultures should be respected and I have lived for more than two years in a moderate Islamic country. But, at least in Spain many Muslims living here what they are is trying to impose us here their beliefs and customs at all cost. Without wishing to be controversial, I would not know what had been the consequences if a Christian had behaved in a mosque as Muslims in the Cathedral of Barcelona.
We all do mistakes. I am sorry, but I can not agree to what you say. And personally, I do not think he had any intention to offend. It was only ignorance.
| | | | | I believe those are Spanish citizens | Aug 4, 2010 |
Pablo Bouvier wrote: Mohamed Mehenoun wrote: He was in Saudi Arabia he had to respect her culture ! You don't expect people to apply your culture in their homeland ! Philippe Etienne wrote:
... in western cultures... Even if it was true, I don't see why she should do it his way and wipe out her beliefs in her own country. Serious offense or not, I don't see why she should indulge him while he should show the courtesy of respecting the country where he is... I believe that when you go to a foreign country YOU have to respect the local culture (especially if you are an ambassador) and that's what I always do in all my trips to foreign countries. I do believe that it's common sense or else just stay at home... Plus "And I am Christian. Shake my hand!" is plain stupid who cares what or who you are ! She believes in what she believes... Some people are just jerks ! [Edited at 2010-08-02 22:14 GMT] It is true that cultures should be respected and I have lived for more than two years in a moderate Islamic country. But, at least in Spain many Muslims living here what they are is trying to impose us here their beliefs and customs at all cost. Without wishing to be controversial, I would not know what had been the consequences if a Christian had behaved in a mosque as Muslims in the Cathedral of Barcelona. We all do mistakes. I am sorry, but I can not agree to what you say. And personally, I do not think he had any intention to offend. It was only ignorance.
As I said anyone is free to have his own opinion.
However, your example is related to people who were born (and raised) in Spain and who are Spanish citizen, which in my point of view isn't related to the fact they are Muslims and went there to impose their points of view but rather related to a part of the population who is asking for what is believed to be their rights (at least by them)...And all in all the law should be enforced in this case...
Anyway your example depends on how you perceive the protesters. As an example a person of Algerian origin who was born and raised in Spain may be a foreigner for you (Algerian) while for me he is Spanish (and certainly not Algerian)... All in all this a problem between people of the same country, as opposed to the ambassador who recruited a local and wanted to force her to shake his hand...And even that is a matter of perspective, which I am well aware of...
I also spent around a year in Malaga (Spain), while I respected the local culture I only minded my own business especially that I wasn't in my country, and I certainly wouldn't have went to Barcelona or anywhere else to make what the locals may perceive as a "ruckus" !
Mohamed Mehenoun wrote:
Don't forget that the embassy is in Saudi Arabia even though it's technically "Australian soil" and that they are hiring locals and they are bound in their contracts by the law of "Saudi Arabia"...
It may not be completely true or at least it may not be enforceable. There is such a thing as diplomatic immunity which is a necessary safeguard for ambassadors in non-friendly countries. But the widespread abuse of this privilege including avoiding responsibility for deaths caused by drunk driving is a big problem.
It's true that there is the diplomatic immunity, but I do believe that when you recruit someone in their country, embassy or not you are bound by the laws of the country for the locals. As a matter of fact, Here in Algeria the personnel of the embassy of France (bi-nationals) did a strike because the embassy had to pay them in dinars (local currency) since it was the law of Algeria...
| | | | | I believe those are Spanish citizens | Aug 4, 2010 |
Mohamed Mehenoun wrote: Pablo Bouvier wrote: Mohamed Mehenoun wrote: He was in Saudi Arabia he had to respect her culture ! You don't expect people to apply your culture in their homeland ! Philippe Etienne wrote:
... in western cultures... Even if it was true, I don't see why she should do it his way and wipe out her beliefs in her own country. Serious offense or not, I don't see why she should indulge him while he should show the courtesy of respecting the country where he is... I believe that when you go to a foreign country YOU have to respect the local culture (especially if you are an ambassador) and that's what I always do in all my trips to foreign countries. I do believe that it's common sense or else just stay at home... Plus "And I am Christian. Shake my hand!" is plain stupid who cares what or who you are ! She believes in what she believes... Some people are just jerks ! [Edited at 2010-08-02 22:14 GMT] It is true that cultures should be respected and I have lived for more than two years in a moderate Islamic country. But, at least in Spain many Muslims living here what they are is trying to impose us here their beliefs and customs at all cost. Without wishing to be controversial, I would not know what had been the consequences if a Christian had behaved in a mosque as Muslims in the Cathedral of Barcelona. We all do mistakes. I am sorry, but I can not agree to what you say. And personally, I do not think he had any intention to offend. It was only ignorance. As I said anyone is free to have his own opinion. However, your example is related to people who were born (and raised) in Spain and who are Spanish citizen, which in my point of view isn't related to the fact they are Muslims and went there to impose their points of view but rather related to a part of the population who is asking for what is believed to be their rights (at least by them)...And all in all the law should be enforced in this case... Anyway your example depends on how you perceive the protesters. As an example a person of Algerian origin who was born and raised in Spain may be a foreigner for you (Algerian) while for me he is Spanish (and certainly not Algerian)... All in all this a problem between people of the same country, as opposed to the ambassador who recruited a local and wanted to force her to shake his hand...And even that is a matter of perspective, which I am well aware of... I also spent around a year in Malaga (Spain), while I respected the local culture I only minded my own business especially that I wasn't in my country, and I certainly wouldn't have went to Barcelona or anywhere else to make what the locals may perceive as a "ruckus" !
Mohamed Mehenoun wrote:
Don't forget that the embassy is in Saudi Arabia even though it's technically "Australian soil" and that they are hiring locals and they are bound in their contracts by the law of "Saudi Arabia"...
It may not be completely true or at least it may not be enforceable. There is such a thing as diplomatic immunity which is a necessary safeguard for ambassadors in non-friendly countries. But the widespread abuse of this privilege including avoiding responsibility for deaths caused by drunk driving is a big problem.
It's true that there is the diplomatic immunity, but I do believe that when you recruit someone in their country, embassy or not you are bound by the laws of the country for the locals. As a matter of fact, Here in Algeria the personnel of the embassy of France (bi-nationals) did a strike because the embassy had to pay them in dinars (local currency) since it was the law of Algeria...
Then, I am sorry but your believe is wrong. They were Muslims that where no more than for one to three years here and almost in no way spanish citizens (nor born, neither raised in Spain), but illegal immigrants as could be inferred by the police investigations. Please, do not misrepresent what I said ( they are proved facts that can be read in any newspaper archive) or make dubious assumptions about how we may perceive other people as it is what it is: an assumption.
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