Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 17, 2022:

@Nick Like Muriel, I like the structure of your answer better."Dingbats" seems to be more in line with "antas" than "dip-shits" or "jackasses". In PT-Br, it's derogatorily mild, although I suspect nobody would like to be called an "anta". I'll cross out the addition ("the rest of you") since it's not in the source. Thank you and thank you all.

Barbara Cochran, MFA Jan 17, 2022:

Vote Against "Dingbat" If only because that "title" was given to the character "Edith", played by Jean Stapleton, by the character who was her bigoted husband, Archie Bunker, played by Carroll O'Connor, in what was the immensely popular 1970s American sitcom, "All In The Family". In the end, it was always "Edith", the "Dingbat", who showed, in a very understated and quiet way, except for one time, when she was quite assertive and serious, that she was actually the one with the brains/the thoughtful one.

Nick Taylor Jan 17, 2022:

@Muriel Thanks! Yes dip-shits was a bit harsh, so maybe even "DINGBATS" to keep it in a semi jocular vein, with a nod to a non existent creature ha ha!!Or even wolpertinger/jackalope etc. :-)

Muriel Vasconcellos Jan 17, 2022:

@Nick I love it! I was a little concerned about "dip-shits" but I liked the structure of your answer.

Nick Taylor Jan 17, 2022:

@ et al Animal theme....given that this particular species is now extinct thanks to Dutch (and other) sailors... what about - "Now it just needs the rest of you DODOS to follow suit!"

Muriel Vasconcellos Jan 17, 2022:

From today's New York Times ""On Saturday, as the cameras rolled and Djokovic returned to detention at the Park Hotel, Media Day went on without the reigning champion at Melbourne Park. (Normally, he would have been included in the event — where players were alone on the dais and members of **the news media were socially distanced** — but Djokovic was not interviewed on Saturday given the situation.)"

Barbara Cochran, MFA Jan 16, 2022:

Translating Dialogue Yes, of course I translate dialogue in novels in a way that reflects the spirit of what is actually going on between the interlocutors, and by taking the specific context into consideration. But if you were to take a look at the list of books I have translated, you would see that the majority of them have been non-fiction; and to tell you the truth, I can't remember if a single one of those had any dialogue whatsoever in them. I have actually received high praise, though, and in some very public ways, from a very appreciative client, for whom I translated his highly entertaining novel. I had great fun doing it.

Barbara Cochran, MFA Jan 16, 2022:

My 2 Votes... ... are for either of these two verbal phrases: "maintain social distancing", or "socially distance." That's what I usually seem to hear coming from the mouths of the announcers on the not always all that formal local, Cleveland, Ohio, newscasts, as well as on ABC's nightly news program. I would assume that they must be instructed to adhere to certain journalistic standards. As far as one of the local dailies here in Lorain County is concerned, the level of writing and English the reporters have used in their stories has been so poor over the past several years, that a lot of their regular readers have literally abandoned them. I don't have a clue why they are still in business, esp. since their local competitor does at least a mostly passable job with their writing.

Muriel Vasconcellos Jan 16, 2022:

@Barbara When you translate dialog in your books, Don't you relax your standards a bit? I know that dialog translation is a big issue. I like a style that captures the mood in the vernacular but without a lot of strange orthography to try to convey the pronunciation.

Muriel Vasconcellos Jan 16, 2022:

@Barbara I'm just reporting what I see in the press and what I hear around the neighborhood. When it comes to other registers, I can be obsessively picky.

Barbara Cochran, MFA Jan 16, 2022:

Well, Muriel, if you think it would be more appropriate to use the expression as a verbal phrase, I think, from my prescriptive point of view, that it would be better to use the adverbial qualifier ,"socialLY".

Muriel Vasconcellos Jan 16, 2022:

@Oliver Hi Oliver,
Actually, my suggestion was to use "social distance" as a *verb*, which is very common in the press and in the vernacular. Examples:
"Boris didn't social distance at the party."
"Participants were instructed to social distance."
"The markers on the pool deck are intended to social distance the users."

That's the part that Barbara has a problem with. Even though I have been an editor and translator for international organizations for over 50 years, I still like to respect the register of a text when I'm editing or translating.

Barbara Cochran, MFA Jan 16, 2022:

Yes, I'm a relativist myself, esp. when it comes to literary translation, because of the fact of the obvious existence of cultural;y-based nuance and diversity of perspective. Enjoy the rest of your weekend, too.

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 16, 2022:

Barbara, Overall I agree with you. However, to me, it is a battle of words because I know for a fact that there's nothing wrong with "keep social distance" (as referenced earlier). The parameters you have mentioned are relative (except culture). Enough said. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Barbara Cochran, MFA Jan 16, 2022:

I don't think linguistic discussion has to be or should be considered a "battle of words". There is nothing wrong with respectfully disagreeing with someone regarding their take on things, which is based on the diversity of one individual in relation to another, esp. when it comes to parameters like education, life experiences, and native culture. All of that usually has a great deal of impact on how one translates and writes.

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 16, 2022:

@Muriel As far as "keep" or "maintain", it's just a matter of personal preference. There are zillion examples with "keep" as in "keep a distance of..." https://www.google.com/search?q="he kept a distance of"

keep (social distance): "continue to maintain", an action very befitting between those who are choosing between life and death. I choose life, therefore I keep (or continue to maintain) social distancing. :-) https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/keep

But, I must say this battle of words is in vain. As I mentioned earlier, I already picked a different translation so there's no point in prolonging the discussion. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Muriel Vasconcellos Jan 16, 2022:

@Barbara This is an informal, colloquial text. Linguistically, it's wiser to use a colloquial term than a "correct" one. I did agree with your answer, so I don't understand how I managed to trigger such strong feelings.

Barbara Cochran, MFA Jan 16, 2022:

"Keep Social Distance"... ... is not the correct term in English. The correct term, and one which is a lot more grammatical, is "maintain social distancing". See https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/static/responsible/signs/Social...

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 16, 2022:

@Muriel I hope this helps clarify my word choice:

"Keep social distance" seems to be the underlying message behind "entenderam o distanciamento social". This was my initial choice, but l later changed it to "understand social distancing", which seems to be a better match:
distância: distance
distanciamento: distancing

Frankly, I don't see anything "unnatural" or "stilted" about "keep social distance". It's been used on websites like The Boston Globe, Buffalo News, USA Today, etc. There are over 400K search results for this expression on Google: https://www.google.com/search?q="keep social distance"

The main reason for the change is that "keep" was an unnecessary addition, although IMHO the word sounds pretty mundane, common, and natural in English.

PS: By the way, the structure in question is not idiomatic, but it was worth including it in the glossary, if nothing else, to highlight an error that typically occurs in Portuguese: "falta (sic) as antas" vs. "faltam as antas". All the banners I found were ungrammatical (I fixed the one on my website). The lexicon ("antas") is idiomatic in the sense that it's not the literal meaning, it has to be localized to make sense in English.

Muriel Vasconcellos Jan 16, 2022:

Social distance In a question to Barbara, Oliver suggests 'to keep social distance'. That sounds odd.
'Social distance' has become a verb in the vernacular. Everywhere people are using expressions like 'be careful to social distance'. In this context, the language should sound colloquial; being grammatically correct sounds stilted and unnatural.

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 15, 2022:

Intransigent unwilling or refusing to change one's views or to agree about something.
"her father had tried persuasion, but she was intransigent" (Oxford)

As far as I know, it's typically a human trait. Never seen it applied to an animal. Maybe you can give me some references of its use as applied to animals when you post your references for ungulates (as a category) conveying stupidity.

Andrew Bramhall Jan 15, 2022:

@Oliver Yes, 'intransigent' can be applied to animals as well as humans; it means they are dumb, stubborn, do not obey commands, etc;

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 15, 2022:

Barbara, I agree, I would say too general. According to the Wikipedia article, ungulates also include horses, dolphins, and whales. The whales, for example, are known to have highly developed communication systems, so I don't see how the "stupid" characterization could apply to them. Dolphins are also very smart animals. The source term is specific and has a specific meaning that in my view would be lost/diluted in translation if I were to choose a broad animal category.

Barbara Cochran, MFA Jan 15, 2022:

But "ungulate" is a term that is rather general when it comes to hoofed animals, and I think something more colorful is needed in this case. Although it's true that the "herd (like sheep) ("successfully" dumbed down) mentality" is what those in power like to take advantage of, so they can attempt to control everybody's behavior, through instilling fear. One American writer coined the term "sheeple" in the mid-2000s to describe people who decide to follow along with all of that.

Oliver Simões (asker) Jan 15, 2022:

@Andrew Ungulates are such a broad category: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungulate I haven't found any dictionary references asserting the alleged meaning. Can you provide one or two? In any event, I'd rather stick to something more specific (as in the original). I've never seen "intransigent" being applied to an animal. Can you please explain what you mean by that?

Andrew Bramhall Jan 15, 2022:

Does "ungulate" convey the notion of stupidity? @ Oliver: Well yes;donkeys and sheep, as examples of ungulates, are renowned for being stupid, ignorant, and intransigent;