Glossary entry (derived from question below)
German term or phrase:
streitbare Demokratie
English translation:
militant democracy
Added to glossary by
Nadders
Jun 13, 2004 18:29
19 yrs ago
German term
Dr.G.MD (X)
"streitbare Demokratie"
German to English
Social Sciences
Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
How to say it best in English ?
Complete Sentence:
Lasst uns für eine *streitbare Demokratie* kämpfen.
Complete Sentence:
Lasst uns für eine *streitbare Demokratie* kämpfen.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+6
13 mins
Selected
militant democracy
"Der Begriff streitbare
Demokratie wurde von dem deutschen Emigranten Karl
Loewenstein, durch den Aufsatz “Militant Democracy and
fundamental rights” im Jahre 1937, und von Karl Mannheim im
Buch “Diagnose unserer Zeit - Gedanken eines Soziologen”
aus dem Jahre 1951 geprägt." (http://home.foni.net/~kahlund/04.htm)
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Note added at 2004-06-13 19:55:29 (GMT)
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in answer to Sabine\'s (rhetorical?) question:
The idea of a militant democracy is that it gives the state the power to combat any (perceived) threats to the democratic order of things.
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Note added at 2004-06-14 09:15:11 (GMT)
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note to Mats (under Ingrid\'s answer):
It is not just not the subject of discussion how \"streitbare Demokratie\" is defined, it is also not the subject of discussion whether the translation that is *generally accepted* by experts in the field (sociology or political science) is a good one. This is especially the case if the quote above is to be believed and the English phrase was in fact used first.
Demokratie wurde von dem deutschen Emigranten Karl
Loewenstein, durch den Aufsatz “Militant Democracy and
fundamental rights” im Jahre 1937, und von Karl Mannheim im
Buch “Diagnose unserer Zeit - Gedanken eines Soziologen”
aus dem Jahre 1951 geprägt." (http://home.foni.net/~kahlund/04.htm)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2004-06-13 19:55:29 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
in answer to Sabine\'s (rhetorical?) question:
The idea of a militant democracy is that it gives the state the power to combat any (perceived) threats to the democratic order of things.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2004-06-14 09:15:11 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
note to Mats (under Ingrid\'s answer):
It is not just not the subject of discussion how \"streitbare Demokratie\" is defined, it is also not the subject of discussion whether the translation that is *generally accepted* by experts in the field (sociology or political science) is a good one. This is especially the case if the quote above is to be believed and the English phrase was in fact used first.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Johanna Timm, PhD
: nice research! And nothing to do with 'military'.Here's an interesting article on the use of the word streitbar: http://www.extremismus.com/texte/streitbar.htm
15 mins
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thank you.
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| agree |
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
: Lehrreich! // add: Aber ich soll erstmal neutral bleiben. Gibt es denn schon offizielle Übersetzung dazu?//Andererseits hatte Sigi Freud auch mal von "militanten Pazifisten" geredet. Also, stimme dir doch zu.
32 mins
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thanks.
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| neutral |
Mag. Sabine Senn
: but would you want to fight for your right to live in a militant democracy?
42 mins
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thanks for comment, please see note above.
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| neutral |
Renate FitzRoy
: doesn't sound as positive as "streitbar"
2 hrs
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you'd have to take that up with the political scientists
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| neutral |
Ellen Zittinger
: not militant
2 hrs
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you mean, you agree with 'democracy'? !
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| agree |
Susanne Rindlisbacher
2 hrs
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thanks
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| agree |
Kim Metzger
: Militant would work too, depending on how "streitbar" is used in the source text.
3 hrs
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thanks
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| agree |
Fantutti (X)
: A self-defending democracy. Democratic principles will not be wavered. ('Eternity clause') Streitbar has nothing to do with valiant, brave or heroic in this context.
4 hrs
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thanks
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| agree |
Ingrid Blank
: The principle of "Streitbare Demokratie" (militant democracy ...www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/currie2.htm - 14k
8 hrs
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thanks
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| disagree |
Mats Wiman
: See the addition to my suggestion.// ... and the second one.
10 hrs
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had a look, thanks.
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| neutral |
Sven Petersson
: They do indeed seem to become militant, but is that not merely a result of that they compromise some democratic principles. The KudoZ rules do unfortunately prevent me from posting examples. Please see my answer!
11 hrs
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I'm not sure I follow you.
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| agree |
Ramon Somoza
: I am hesitant about "militant" democracies, as those that call themselves that end up being "camouflaged" dictatorships, but without further context I could concur. (Not that I like it, though)
22 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Graded automatically based on peer agreement."
-1
13 mins
Kim Metzger
Mexico
Mexico
Native in English
Works in field
Mexico
Committed to Quality and Service
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
Works in: German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
127
German term (edited):
streitbare Demokratie
heroic democracy
Another possibility in addition to Ramon's fine suggestions. A synonym of valiant is heroic. Here heroic is meant in the sense of strong, potent.
-1
26 mins
Dr. Fred Thomson
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
A lawyer, technician, nuclear power optr
Native in: English
Works in: German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
aggressive democracy
This will work if your context fits.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Ellen Zittinger
: not really aggressive
2 hrs
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| disagree |
Mats Wiman
: See the addition to my suggestion
10 hrs
|
42 mins
German term (edited):
streitbare Demokrafie
Democracy worthy to fight for
Kann es nicht wie folgendes gemeint sein?
Let us fight a worthy democracy!
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Note added at 45 mins (2004-06-13 19:14:41 GMT)
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Ach, Quatsch hab\' ich geredet!
Nadders hat ja schon gut recherchiert.
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Note added at 3 hrs 28 mins (2004-06-13 21:58:01 GMT)
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Ich erinnere mich, daß es einen Briefwechsel zwischen Sigmund Freud und Albert Einstein über Frieden (oder Krieg?) gibt.
In einem der Briefe meinte Sigi, daß man militanter Pazifist werden solle.
Ich kann mich nicht mehr an den exakten Wortlaut erinnern, aber das hatte ich höchst wahrscheinlich in dem Buch \"Warum Krieg?\" gelesen.
Also, es kann schon sehr gut sein, daß der gute Gerhard doch \"militante Demokratie\" ernst meinte.
Let us fight a worthy democracy!
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Note added at 45 mins (2004-06-13 19:14:41 GMT)
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Ach, Quatsch hab\' ich geredet!
Nadders hat ja schon gut recherchiert.
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Note added at 3 hrs 28 mins (2004-06-13 21:58:01 GMT)
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Ich erinnere mich, daß es einen Briefwechsel zwischen Sigmund Freud und Albert Einstein über Frieden (oder Krieg?) gibt.
In einem der Briefe meinte Sigi, daß man militanter Pazifist werden solle.
Ich kann mich nicht mehr an den exakten Wortlaut erinnern, aber das hatte ich höchst wahrscheinlich in dem Buch \"Warum Krieg?\" gelesen.
Also, es kann schon sehr gut sein, daß der gute Gerhard doch \"militante Demokratie\" ernst meinte.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Kim Metzger
: Should be "worth fighting for" or "worthy of fighting for."
1 hr
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Thank you for your encouragement.
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+3
9 hrs
`not for points, just to confirm Nadders answer
The principle of "Streitbare Demokratie" (militant democracy) is a reflection of the relative youth of the regime and the overthrow of Germany's previous attempt at democracy. Based on Articles 21(2), 9(2), 5(3), and 18 of the Basic Law, it allows for the suppression of any actions (including speech and press) and organizations (including political parties) aimed at destroying "the free democratic order." While noting that the United States Constitution contains no similar provisions, Currie perceptively observes, "The fact is that in periods of real or imaginary danger we have tended to adopt measures strikingly similar in effect to those expressly countenanced by the Basic Law, and the Supreme Court has tended to uphold them -- in the teeth of an ostensibly absolute protection." (p. 215) http://www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/currie2.h...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Johanna Timm, PhD
: perfect reference, thanks for posting it.
54 mins
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| agree |
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
: Well, in the link Nadder provided: Der Begriff streitbare Demokratie wurde von dem deutschen Emigranten Karl Loewenstein, durch den Aufsatz ¡°Militant Democracy and fundamental rights¡± im Jahre 1937, und von Karl Mannheim im Buch....
1 hr
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| agree |
Fantutti (X)
: Yes, exactly. Also read Eckhard Jesse and Uwe Backes
1 hr
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| disagree |
Mats Wiman
: Logically I dispute Currie's translation. See the addition to my suggestion//I do not dispute that 'sD' has been thus defined. In the context, that is not the subject of discussion IMHO.
1 hr
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Die Einschränkung demokratischer Rechte gegenüber undemokratischen Bestrebungen und die Nichttoleranz gegenüber Antidemokraten wird als streitbare Demokratie bezeichnet.
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| agree |
Nadders
: thanks
5 hrs
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+1
11 hrs
Sven Petersson
Sweden
Sweden
Native in English
Sweden
Medical Translator
Native in: Swedish 
, English
Works in: English to Swedish, Danish to Swedish, German to Swedish, and 13 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
8
German term (edited):
streitbare Demokratie
self-protecting democracy
A democracy protected by (and compromised by) an unchangeable constitution.
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Note added at 11 hrs 49 mins (2004-06-14 06:19:11 GMT)
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http://www.satv.tiesa.gov.lv/Eng/Spriedumi/03-01(opinions).h...
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Note added at 12 hrs 7 mins (2004-06-14 06:36:31 GMT)
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Synonym: self-defending democracy
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Note added at 12 hrs 13 mins (2004-06-14 06:43:17 GMT)
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Synonym: self-defending democracy
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Note added at 11 hrs 49 mins (2004-06-14 06:19:11 GMT)
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http://www.satv.tiesa.gov.lv/Eng/Spriedumi/03-01(opinions).h...
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Note added at 12 hrs 7 mins (2004-06-14 06:36:31 GMT)
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Synonym: self-defending democracy
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Note added at 12 hrs 13 mins (2004-06-14 06:43:17 GMT)
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Synonym: self-defending democracy
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Fantutti (X)
: Yes, even though I already suggested 'self-defending' democracy in my agree for Nadders.
18 hrs
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Thank you very much!
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+3
2 hrs
courageous democracy
a democracy ready to defend its principles, which is not easily intimidated
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Note added at 14 hrs 24 mins (2004-06-14 08:53:26 GMT)
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why not add \"that isn\'t afraid of controversy\". This way, you could include Mats\'s meaning as well.
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Note added at 14 hrs 24 mins (2004-06-14 08:53:26 GMT)
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why not add \"that isn\'t afraid of controversy\". This way, you could include Mats\'s meaning as well.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Kim Metzger
: Another good solution, although we'd need to know more about how streitbar is being used in Gerhard's text.
2 mins
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| agree |
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
: Well, this is also in my mind.
8 mins
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| agree |
Ellen Zittinger
: I like the explanation better than the use of the word "courageous" in this context
16 mins
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| disagree |
Mats Wiman
: See the addition to my suggestion
7 hrs
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| agree |
Ramon Somoza
: I think is is exactly what I was suggesting - a good alternative.
20 hrs
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+1
20 mins
Mats Wiman
Sweden
Sweden
Sweden
DEU / ENG / FRA / SPA > SWE since 1982
Native in: Swedish (Variant: Stockholm)
Works in: German to Swedish, English to Swedish, Swedish
German term (edited):
streitbare Demokratie
argumentative democracy
streitbar:
argumentative, contentious, disputatious
Norstedts
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Note added at 10 hrs 22 mins (2004-06-14 04:51:39 GMT)
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\'Let\'s fight for an argumentative democracy\' is my interpretation of the given phrase.
A person, a movement, an organisation can be militant, fighting, pugnacious, brave, valiant, heroic and aggressive but \'streitbar when it is related to democracy is hardly any of the above.
When a democracy is \'streitbar\' it \'streits\' with its own weapons, i.e. arguments and opinion-making, not with any means related to the force, daring, aggressiveness or other virtues related to physical bravery, warfare or other uses of force.
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Note added at 15 hrs 3 mins (2004-06-14 09:32:47 GMT)
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Nadders says:
It is not just not the subject of discussion how \"streitbare Demokratie\" is defined, it is also not the subject of discussion whether the translation that is *generally accepted* by experts in the field (sociology or political science) is a good one. This is especially the case if the quote above is to be believed and the English phrase was in fact used first. \"
I do not get your point. Disputing what in my suggetsion??
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I maintain that \'streitbar\' is closer to \'streitbereit und streitfreudig\' (Richard von Weizäcker) than to all the fighting suggestions posted. That\'s why I\'m so persistent about \'argumentative\', \'contentious\', \'disputatious\' describing the behavior of good democrats.
argumentative, contentious, disputatious
Norstedts
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Note added at 10 hrs 22 mins (2004-06-14 04:51:39 GMT)
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\'Let\'s fight for an argumentative democracy\' is my interpretation of the given phrase.
A person, a movement, an organisation can be militant, fighting, pugnacious, brave, valiant, heroic and aggressive but \'streitbar when it is related to democracy is hardly any of the above.
When a democracy is \'streitbar\' it \'streits\' with its own weapons, i.e. arguments and opinion-making, not with any means related to the force, daring, aggressiveness or other virtues related to physical bravery, warfare or other uses of force.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs 3 mins (2004-06-14 09:32:47 GMT)
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Nadders says:
It is not just not the subject of discussion how \"streitbare Demokratie\" is defined, it is also not the subject of discussion whether the translation that is *generally accepted* by experts in the field (sociology or political science) is a good one. This is especially the case if the quote above is to be believed and the English phrase was in fact used first. \"
I do not get your point. Disputing what in my suggetsion??
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I maintain that \'streitbar\' is closer to \'streitbereit und streitfreudig\' (Richard von Weizäcker) than to all the fighting suggestions posted. That\'s why I\'m so persistent about \'argumentative\', \'contentious\', \'disputatious\' describing the behavior of good democrats.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Mag. Sabine Senn
: I think this comes closest depending on which country we are talking about. I would go for this one for Germany
37 mins
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Thanks!
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| disagree |
Kim Metzger
: That's only one of several meanings of streitbar. Wahrig: auch tapfer, mannhaft. Muret-Sanders: valiant.
2 hrs
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I know what 'streitbar' means. Do not assume ignorance.
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| neutral |
Ellen Zittinger
: a bit off
2 hrs
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Yes. Intended here.
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| agree |
Elke Schröter (X)
13 hrs
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Thanks!
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| neutral |
Renate FitzRoy
: I see what you are getting at and would have loved to include this meaning, but the translations you're suggesting don't render it either
13 hrs
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I am sure it can be improved. Do suggest something!
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| neutral |
Nadders
: please see my note to you under my answer, thanks.
14 hrs
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Please see above.
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4 mins
Ramon Somoza
Spain
Spain
Native in English
Spain
40 years in aerospace & IT translations
Native in: Spanish (Variant: Standard-Spain) , English (Variant: US)
Works in: Dutch to Spanish, Dutch to English, English to Spanish, and 7 more.
German term (edited):
streitbare Demokrafie
fighting/pugnacious/brave/valiant democracy
Just a few suggestions....
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Note added at 22 hrs 46 mins (2004-06-14 17:15:32 GMT)
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Note that my proposal assumes that there is a threat to the democracy (either from an external or internal enemy), and the democracy is willing to fight agoinst such threat. If this is not the case, many of the other proposed options may be more appropriate.
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Note added at 22 hrs 46 mins (2004-06-14 17:15:32 GMT)
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Note that my proposal assumes that there is a threat to the democracy (either from an external or internal enemy), and the democracy is willing to fight agoinst such threat. If this is not the case, many of the other proposed options may be more appropriate.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Kim Metzger
: Let's fight for a brave democracy. A brave new world.
3 hrs
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Danke schön, Herr Metzger!
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| disagree |
Mats Wiman
: See the addition to my suggestion
10 hrs
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Without further context, I stay with my proposal, i.e., a democracy that is willing to defened itself and its principles - and unless there is more context that proves otherwise, I totally disagree with your proposal.
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Discussion