Aug 14, 2019 22:38
4 yrs ago
3 viewers *
English term

minimum plumb

English to German Tech/Engineering Construction / Civil Engineering elevators
Thema: Planungsdaten aus einer Broschüre zu einem Aufzugsmodell

Kontext: Shaft dimensions shown at minimum plumb, building tolerances should be added

Was ist unter "shown at minimum plumb" zu verstehen und gibt es dafür einen im Deutschen gebräuchlichen Ausdruck?

Discussion

D. I. Verrelli Aug 16, 2019:
Grammar I've drafted two attempted explanations of the grammar, but neither was completely satisfactory. So I'd be inclined to follow David Moore's suggestion, and just accept that there are many occasions where brevity and convenience win out over careful grammatical composition.
David Moore (X) Aug 16, 2019:
@Rolf. You're right again, but may I suggest we stable horses on "architectural jargon"? Every sector (mis)uses words for its own reasons, doesn't it....
Rolf Keller Aug 16, 2019:
@David There is a huge distinction between professional architects, professional technical writers, and people who are able to read and write. That's realistic.

Is there any grammatically correct and meaningful interpretation of "XXX is shown at minimum plumb"? If not, the choice of words is doubtful as well.

David Moore (X) Aug 15, 2019:
@Rolf: True; but it cannot be realistically described as colloquial when it is used by professional architects in the sense of "precisely`?
Rolf Keller Aug 15, 2019:
@David plumb
I s (...)
II adj (...)
III adv
1. lot-, senkrecht
2. colloq. (haar)genau: plumb in the middle
3. bes. Am. colloq. komplett, total: plumb crazy

© Langenscheidt KG, Berlin und München

See Collins, see Webster, ...
David Moore (X) Aug 15, 2019:
@Rolf: The word "plumb" is not by any means "Umgangssprache"; it means "perpendicular", and I therefore think DJV has it spot on.
Rolf Keller Aug 15, 2019:
@Thomas Dass es nicht die Tiefe der Schachtgrube ist, steht klar erkennbar im AT. In der deutschen Version fehlt der Satz, dafür steht dort aber oben drüber "lichte Abmessungen".
Thomas Blicker (asker) Aug 15, 2019:
Liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen,

über den genannten Link konnte ich die deutsche Fassung des Prospekts für dieses Aufzugsmodell finden, aber die entsprechende Passage war leider darin nicht vorhanden, sodass ich für die aktuelle Übersetzung für ein anderes Modell wohl nicht umhinkomme, die Bedeutung mit dem Kunden abzuklären.
Aber vielen Dank für eure Vorschläge und Unterstützung!
Rolf Keller Aug 15, 2019:
Der AT findet sich hier:
https://www.schindler.com/content/ie/internet/en/mobility-so...

Daraus erkennt man, dass es die lichten Abmessungen des Schachts sind. Das "plumb" ist hier offenbar Umgangssprache und meint "haargenau". Der Schacht muss also die angegebenen Maße haben PLUS unvermeidliche Tolerenzen des Baus - deswegen das "minimum".

Proposed translations

+3
17 hrs
Selected

Breiten/Messungen sind die Minima, die gelten würden, wenn der Schacht wirklich genau senkrecht wäre

National Structural Concrete Specification for Building Construction; 4th edition, complying with BS EN 13670:2009
"Lift shafts require a minimum plumb dimension and a positive only tolerance".
https://engineeringsurveyor.com/software/NSCS-Edition-4.pdf
Unable to copy & paste from this, but see §10, "Geometric Tolerances", and especially §10.2.1 on "Inclination".
By my reading this is about deviation of the shaft from perfectly vertical. Hence the reference to a plumb, as in plumb line.
Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumb_bob

The lift will presumably want to hang vertically. If the shaft has the necessary width to accommodate the lift but has been built on a slight angle, then the lift may knock into the walls of the shaft — especially in a tall building with a long shaft, where small angular deviations would accumulate into large horizontal 'errors'.

As it is only possible for the shaft to be less vertical than the plumb line — it cannot be more vertical than the plumb line — only a positive tolerance should be specified (to be added onto the minimum [breadth] dimension).

Constructing the shaft wider than this minimum value will allow it to accommodate a lift safely even if there are some deviations from true vertical.
The allowance to be made (the magnitude of the tolerance) may vary from one building to another.

I do not claim the above phrasing to be perfectly idiomatic German, but I think here the main issue is understanding the meaning.

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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:48:15 GMT)
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By the way, "inclination" in the cited text refers to the 'angle' or 'lean' or 'slope'.
http://www.mathwords.com/a/angle_inclination.htm

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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:56:17 GMT)
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"Builder's work — lift well:
· Calculations with regard to the architect's plans and structural loadings.
· Form a plumb lift well and pit according to the architect's drawings and to tolerances acceptable to the lift manufacturer (known as Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)."
https://epdf.pub/queue/building-services-handbook.html

"Form a plumb lift well and pit" is indicating a vertical construction. Although you'd think that'd 'go without saying' ....
"Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)." I believe "ideal" or "bare" (as in "bare minimum") would be better words than "basic" here [I am ignoring "Nominal"].

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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:07:00 GMT)
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BTW, very tall buildings ('skyscrapers') sway with the wind: even if they could be built to be perfectly vertical in the absence of wind, they would deviate from vertical in the presence of wind.

"A 40-storey building may sway a foot to the left, a foot to the right. [....] A 100-storey building, by comparison, may move on the order of two-and-a-half to three feet to each side, [...]."
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/06/how-much-do-skyscrapers-a...

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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:20:16 GMT)
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I think this interpretation is compatible with the "lichte Abmessungen" description uncovered by Rolf Keller, except that "minimum plumb" seems to explicitly also convey the key assumption behind determination of the minimum.

licht: .../"[...]; spärlich"/"(von Öffnungen o. Ä.) von der einen zur anderen inneren Begrenzungsfläche gemessen"
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/licht
Peer comment(s):

agree David Moore (X)
1 hr
Thanks :-)
agree Schtroumpf : Nicht ohne Grund sagt man ja auch "lot"-recht!
2 days 19 hrs
Danke :-)
agree Barbara Schmidt, M.A. (X) : agree
5 days
Sehr nett von Ihnen :-)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-2
1 hr

minimum plump

minimal plump = minimale Füllhöhe

shown at minimum plump is difficult to translate correct in german, without the complete sentence.
Peer comment(s):

disagree D. I. Verrelli : "plump" ≠ "plumb". If you accidentally submitted this Answer, I suggest that you can 'hide' it.
15 hrs
disagree Schtroumpf : Kontext Aufzugtechnik: Was soll das wohl sein??
3 days 11 hrs
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-2
1 hr

minimum plump

sry for my first translation

i think shaft dimensioms shown at minimum plump

is perfect translated to

Wellenabmessungen sind mit minimalem Übermaß angegeben.

sorry for my first answer
Peer comment(s):

neutral Rolf Keller : Da "building tolerances added" völlig sinnlos wäre, wenn es um eine Welle ginge, ist das völlig falsch. Und ginge es um eine Welle, wäre die deutsche Formulierung dennoch falsch. shaft = Aufzugsschacht!
5 hrs
disagree D. I. Verrelli : I agree with Rolf Keller. Furthermore, this may be interference from the erroneous reading of "plumb" as "plump" (hence the idea of "plump" ~ "Übermaß").
15 hrs
disagree Schtroumpf : Es ist nicht sehr hilfreich, völlig an den Haaren herbeigezogene "Lösungen" mit höchstem Sicherheitsgrad (CL5) einzustellen. Vielleicht etwas selbstkritischer an das Beantworten von Fragen herangehen?
3 days 11 hrs
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11 hrs

Tiefe, Schachttiefe: wobei die Kabine ganz unten ist

Bin nicht ganz sicher, aber ich glaube, es ist die

Tiefe der Schachtgrube bei ganz heruntergefahrener Kabine.
https://www.aroundhome.de/personenaufzug/masse/

plumb muss ja sowie ein Senkrechtmaß sein

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Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:04:22 GMT)
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Vielleicht hilft das hier auch:
https://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/two-post-lifts/leveling/

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Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:05:11 GMT)
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Also "Mindest-Schachttiefe bei heruntergefahrener Kabine"

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Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:06:19 GMT)
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Nein - Schachttiefe bei heruntergefahrener Kabine
Peer comment(s):

neutral Rolf Keller : Der Schacht ist immer gleich groß, egal, wo sich die Kabine gerade befindet.
48 mins
neutral D. I. Verrelli : I had this thought at first too (inspired by the expression "to plumb the depths" https://www.grammar-monster.com/sayings_proverbs/plumb_the_d... ). But in the present context it seems to be related more to the width, rather than the depth.
5 hrs
Thanks, yes, quite likely! I'm curious to see what Thomas is coming up with after consulting with the client. We should add his (or V's) answer to the glossary.
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