Aug 14, 2019 22:38
4 yrs ago
3 viewers *
English term
minimum plumb
English to German
Tech/Engineering
Construction / Civil Engineering
elevators
Thema: Planungsdaten aus einer Broschüre zu einem Aufzugsmodell
Kontext: Shaft dimensions shown at minimum plumb, building tolerances should be added
Was ist unter "shown at minimum plumb" zu verstehen und gibt es dafür einen im Deutschen gebräuchlichen Ausdruck?
Kontext: Shaft dimensions shown at minimum plumb, building tolerances should be added
Was ist unter "shown at minimum plumb" zu verstehen und gibt es dafür einen im Deutschen gebräuchlichen Ausdruck?
Proposed translations
(German)
Proposed translations
+3
17 hrs
Selected
Breiten/Messungen sind die Minima, die gelten würden, wenn der Schacht wirklich genau senkrecht wäre
National Structural Concrete Specification for Building Construction; 4th edition, complying with BS EN 13670:2009
"Lift shafts require a minimum plumb dimension and a positive only tolerance".
https://engineeringsurveyor.com/software/NSCS-Edition-4.pdf
Unable to copy & paste from this, but see §10, "Geometric Tolerances", and especially §10.2.1 on "Inclination".
By my reading this is about deviation of the shaft from perfectly vertical. Hence the reference to a plumb, as in plumb line.
Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumb_bob
The lift will presumably want to hang vertically. If the shaft has the necessary width to accommodate the lift but has been built on a slight angle, then the lift may knock into the walls of the shaft — especially in a tall building with a long shaft, where small angular deviations would accumulate into large horizontal 'errors'.
As it is only possible for the shaft to be less vertical than the plumb line — it cannot be more vertical than the plumb line — only a positive tolerance should be specified (to be added onto the minimum [breadth] dimension).
Constructing the shaft wider than this minimum value will allow it to accommodate a lift safely even if there are some deviations from true vertical.
The allowance to be made (the magnitude of the tolerance) may vary from one building to another.
I do not claim the above phrasing to be perfectly idiomatic German, but I think here the main issue is understanding the meaning.
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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:48:15 GMT)
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By the way, "inclination" in the cited text refers to the 'angle' or 'lean' or 'slope'.
http://www.mathwords.com/a/angle_inclination.htm
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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:56:17 GMT)
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"Builder's work — lift well:
· Calculations with regard to the architect's plans and structural loadings.
· Form a plumb lift well and pit according to the architect's drawings and to tolerances acceptable to the lift manufacturer (known as Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)."
https://epdf.pub/queue/building-services-handbook.html
"Form a plumb lift well and pit" is indicating a vertical construction. Although you'd think that'd 'go without saying' ....
"Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)." I believe "ideal" or "bare" (as in "bare minimum") would be better words than "basic" here [I am ignoring "Nominal"].
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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:07:00 GMT)
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BTW, very tall buildings ('skyscrapers') sway with the wind: even if they could be built to be perfectly vertical in the absence of wind, they would deviate from vertical in the presence of wind.
"A 40-storey building may sway a foot to the left, a foot to the right. [....] A 100-storey building, by comparison, may move on the order of two-and-a-half to three feet to each side, [...]."
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/06/how-much-do-skyscrapers-a...
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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:20:16 GMT)
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I think this interpretation is compatible with the "lichte Abmessungen" description uncovered by Rolf Keller, except that "minimum plumb" seems to explicitly also convey the key assumption behind determination of the minimum.
licht: .../"[...]; spärlich"/"(von Öffnungen o. Ä.) von der einen zur anderen inneren Begrenzungsfläche gemessen"
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/licht
"Lift shafts require a minimum plumb dimension and a positive only tolerance".
https://engineeringsurveyor.com/software/NSCS-Edition-4.pdf
Unable to copy & paste from this, but see §10, "Geometric Tolerances", and especially §10.2.1 on "Inclination".
By my reading this is about deviation of the shaft from perfectly vertical. Hence the reference to a plumb, as in plumb line.
Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumb_bob
The lift will presumably want to hang vertically. If the shaft has the necessary width to accommodate the lift but has been built on a slight angle, then the lift may knock into the walls of the shaft — especially in a tall building with a long shaft, where small angular deviations would accumulate into large horizontal 'errors'.
As it is only possible for the shaft to be less vertical than the plumb line — it cannot be more vertical than the plumb line — only a positive tolerance should be specified (to be added onto the minimum [breadth] dimension).
Constructing the shaft wider than this minimum value will allow it to accommodate a lift safely even if there are some deviations from true vertical.
The allowance to be made (the magnitude of the tolerance) may vary from one building to another.
I do not claim the above phrasing to be perfectly idiomatic German, but I think here the main issue is understanding the meaning.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:48:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
By the way, "inclination" in the cited text refers to the 'angle' or 'lean' or 'slope'.
http://www.mathwords.com/a/angle_inclination.htm
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:56:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"Builder's work — lift well:
· Calculations with regard to the architect's plans and structural loadings.
· Form a plumb lift well and pit according to the architect's drawings and to tolerances acceptable to the lift manufacturer (known as Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)."
https://epdf.pub/queue/building-services-handbook.html
"Form a plumb lift well and pit" is indicating a vertical construction. Although you'd think that'd 'go without saying' ....
"Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)." I believe "ideal" or "bare" (as in "bare minimum") would be better words than "basic" here [I am ignoring "Nominal"].
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:07:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
BTW, very tall buildings ('skyscrapers') sway with the wind: even if they could be built to be perfectly vertical in the absence of wind, they would deviate from vertical in the presence of wind.
"A 40-storey building may sway a foot to the left, a foot to the right. [....] A 100-storey building, by comparison, may move on the order of two-and-a-half to three feet to each side, [...]."
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/06/how-much-do-skyscrapers-a...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:20:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I think this interpretation is compatible with the "lichte Abmessungen" description uncovered by Rolf Keller, except that "minimum plumb" seems to explicitly also convey the key assumption behind determination of the minimum.
licht: .../"[...]; spärlich"/"(von Öffnungen o. Ä.) von der einen zur anderen inneren Begrenzungsfläche gemessen"
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/licht
Peer comment(s):
agree |
David Moore (X)
1 hr
|
Thanks :-)
|
|
agree |
Schtroumpf
: Nicht ohne Grund sagt man ja auch "lot"-recht!
2 days 19 hrs
|
Danke :-)
|
|
agree |
Barbara Schmidt, M.A. (X)
: agree
5 days
|
Sehr nett von Ihnen :-)
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-2
1 hr
minimum plump
minimal plump = minimale Füllhöhe
shown at minimum plump is difficult to translate correct in german, without the complete sentence.
shown at minimum plump is difficult to translate correct in german, without the complete sentence.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
D. I. Verrelli
: "plump" ≠ "plumb". If you accidentally submitted this Answer, I suggest that you can 'hide' it.
15 hrs
|
disagree |
Schtroumpf
: Kontext Aufzugtechnik: Was soll das wohl sein??
3 days 11 hrs
|
-2
1 hr
minimum plump
sry for my first translation
i think shaft dimensioms shown at minimum plump
is perfect translated to
Wellenabmessungen sind mit minimalem Übermaß angegeben.
sorry for my first answer
i think shaft dimensioms shown at minimum plump
is perfect translated to
Wellenabmessungen sind mit minimalem Übermaß angegeben.
sorry for my first answer
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Rolf Keller
: Da "building tolerances added" völlig sinnlos wäre, wenn es um eine Welle ginge, ist das völlig falsch. Und ginge es um eine Welle, wäre die deutsche Formulierung dennoch falsch. shaft = Aufzugsschacht!
5 hrs
|
disagree |
D. I. Verrelli
: I agree with Rolf Keller. Furthermore, this may be interference from the erroneous reading of "plumb" as "plump" (hence the idea of "plump" ~ "Übermaß").
15 hrs
|
disagree |
Schtroumpf
: Es ist nicht sehr hilfreich, völlig an den Haaren herbeigezogene "Lösungen" mit höchstem Sicherheitsgrad (CL5) einzustellen. Vielleicht etwas selbstkritischer an das Beantworten von Fragen herangehen?
3 days 11 hrs
|
11 hrs
Tiefe, Schachttiefe: wobei die Kabine ganz unten ist
Bin nicht ganz sicher, aber ich glaube, es ist die
Tiefe der Schachtgrube bei ganz heruntergefahrener Kabine.
https://www.aroundhome.de/personenaufzug/masse/
plumb muss ja sowie ein Senkrechtmaß sein
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Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:04:22 GMT)
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Vielleicht hilft das hier auch:
https://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/two-post-lifts/leveling/
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Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:05:11 GMT)
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Also "Mindest-Schachttiefe bei heruntergefahrener Kabine"
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Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:06:19 GMT)
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Nein - Schachttiefe bei heruntergefahrener Kabine
Tiefe der Schachtgrube bei ganz heruntergefahrener Kabine.
https://www.aroundhome.de/personenaufzug/masse/
plumb muss ja sowie ein Senkrechtmaß sein
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:04:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Vielleicht hilft das hier auch:
https://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/two-post-lifts/leveling/
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:05:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Also "Mindest-Schachttiefe bei heruntergefahrener Kabine"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:06:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Nein - Schachttiefe bei heruntergefahrener Kabine
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Rolf Keller
: Der Schacht ist immer gleich groß, egal, wo sich die Kabine gerade befindet.
48 mins
|
neutral |
D. I. Verrelli
: I had this thought at first too (inspired by the expression "to plumb the depths" https://www.grammar-monster.com/sayings_proverbs/plumb_the_d... ). But in the present context it seems to be related more to the width, rather than the depth.
5 hrs
|
Thanks, yes, quite likely! I'm curious to see what Thomas is coming up with after consulting with the client. We should add his (or V's) answer to the glossary.
|
Discussion
Is there any grammatically correct and meaningful interpretation of "XXX is shown at minimum plumb"? If not, the choice of words is doubtful as well.
I s (...)
II adj (...)
III adv
1. lot-, senkrecht
2. colloq. (haar)genau: plumb in the middle
3. bes. Am. colloq. komplett, total: plumb crazy
© Langenscheidt KG, Berlin und München
See Collins, see Webster, ...
über den genannten Link konnte ich die deutsche Fassung des Prospekts für dieses Aufzugsmodell finden, aber die entsprechende Passage war leider darin nicht vorhanden, sodass ich für die aktuelle Übersetzung für ein anderes Modell wohl nicht umhinkomme, die Bedeutung mit dem Kunden abzuklären.
Aber vielen Dank für eure Vorschläge und Unterstützung!
https://www.schindler.com/content/ie/internet/en/mobility-so...
Daraus erkennt man, dass es die lichten Abmessungen des Schachts sind. Das "plumb" ist hier offenbar Umgangssprache und meint "haargenau". Der Schacht muss also die angegebenen Maße haben PLUS unvermeidliche Tolerenzen des Baus - deswegen das "minimum".