i saperi della forma

English translation: design know-how

20:37 Dec 22, 2011

Italian to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Architecture / Book on design in architecture

Italian term or phrase: i saperi della forma

This is the surrounding text:
"Come sempre è possibile però una lettura che mostri anche l’altra faccia della medaglia. La forte separazione che si è ingenerata fra i saperi della costruzione (strutture e tecnologia) ed *i saperi della forma* non sarebbe da attribuire al totale disinteresse dei *saperi della forma* stessa nei confronti degli altri saperi quanto ad un processo di settorializzazione e di suddivisione delle competenze, al fine di meglio controllare gli sviluppi gestionali ed i momenti decisionali."

"saperi della construzione" is easy "construction expertise" or "construction technology". "Knowledge of form" or "form expertise" just doesn't seem to mean anything. I don't want to use "artistic expertise" because, he's already talked about that and it is classified differently. I can't make that connection, which he doesn't make. Something like "spatial composition" isn't quite the same thing.

I have a fairly precise notion of what the author means. He has just spoken about the architect "Gehry". Clearly it is the knowledge, expertise or skill that Gehry used to produce this:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=85...

James (Jim) Davis KudoZ activity Questions: 207 (none open) (3 without valid answers) (21 closed without grading) Answers: 8930 Seychelles
Local time: 14:51

English translation:design know-how

Explanation:
I think "design know-how" versus "construction know-how" seems to work pretty well here. It highlights the difference between practical talent and aesthetic talent.

Selected response from:

Neptunia
Local time: 12:51

Grading comment

On balance this obvious simplification is probably the best compromise.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

understanding of shapes/forms

jasonwkingsley

modelling knowledge

tradu-grace

knowledge of form principles

DrSeuss

shaping expertise

Glinda

the disciplines related to form ("of the form/al")

Michael Korovkin

design know-how

Neptunia

Discussion entries: 11

James (Jim) Davis

Seychelles

ASKER

Thanks Russell

15:38 Dec 24, 2011

That is the most useful information: that there is no set term for this. He has already (a few pages before) quoted Le Corbusier "you are an organiser not a drawing board artist", but here he talks only of form as a function totally separated from the boys doing the building on site (that is what he means by "saperi"). That is clear from the general context. I often find when talking to authors (planners and architects) when they are being what seems totally abstract that what they are actually thinking is very concrete. Faced with pages of complete metaphysics, I asked one author, "Do you mean Sesto San Giovanni?" (Near Milan) "Yes, precisely!" He replied.

Russell Jones

United Kingdom

14:22 Dec 24, 2011

No flashes of inspiration. On reflection I think it might be best to stick with form. One or two ideas for saperi that might conceivably be used with costruzione as well: prowess with ..., mastery of ...

James (Jim) Davis

Seychelles

ASKER

@Russell

23:42 Dec 22, 2011

Hi Russel. Please feel free to sleep right through Christmas and beyond. My deadline is Jan 15 2000 next one, twelve isn't it?

Russell Jones

United Kingdom

23:37 Dec 22, 2011

The idea of shapes is very pertinent to Gehry's buildings. A relevant word often used in architectural jargon is "modelling". I'm too tired to suggest a complete answer!

jasonwkingsley

United States

Confusion and indifference...

23:07 Dec 22, 2011

I have studied this and I think that the writer is saying that just because the architect is creating these wacky 'confusing' (ingenerata implies this) forms (as I saw in the links, very famous stuff as well), it doesn't mean that he is indifferent (disinteresse) to the shapes or forms. In fact, his decisions are quite precise and he is in perfect control of everything. I'll continue with a translation in my notes..

Glinda

Well, in my vocabulary

21:04 Dec 22, 2011

I found a constructed sentence...

un architetto molto inventivo --> a highly imaginative architect

And also this:

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q="imaginative...

So "imaginative expertise" could be a better option.

James (Jim) Davis

Seychelles

ASKER

My doubt is

21:01 Dec 22, 2011

that in this case there is nothing better. An architect, Russell Jones (moderator) is an architect and he might know a specific term.

Glinda

You still sound doubtful about it

20:59 Dec 22, 2011

and with reason... will reflect on it

James (Jim) Davis

Seychelles

ASKER

Dear English moderator from geordie land

20:58 Dec 22, 2011

your help is needed!! Please.

James (Jim) Davis

Seychelles

ASKER

Could work

20:57 Dec 22, 2011

...

Glinda

Another try:

20:55 Dec 22, 2011

"creative expertise"?

Answers

23 mins confidence:

knowledge of form principles

Explanation:
just an idea.

DrSeuss
Italy
Local time: 12:51
Native speaker of: Italian

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thankyou DrSeuss

11 mins confidence:

shaping expertise

Explanation:
How about this?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 37 min (2011-12-22 21:14:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In mancanza di una migliore soluzione, aggiungo anche quelle discusse qui sopra con James:

"creative expertise" oppure "imaginative expertise".

Glinda
Local time: 12:51
Native speaker of:

Italian
PRO pts in category: 3

Notes to answerer

Asker: I did consider "shape" here and often use it to translate form, but it just doesn't work here. Designers aren't "shapers", even if that is what they do. So far I have "artistic expertise (form)" in brackets, even if I don't really want to use the word "artistic".

Asker: Thank you Glinda

28 mins confidence:

understanding of shapes/forms

Explanation:
I would play around with different definitions all pertaining to his understanding of architecture. Use different words for 'saperi' - knowledge, understanding, awarness,

maybe 'shape consciousness' for this phrase...expertise implies perfection and upon a quick look at wiki, it seems a bit different, he might be an expert at what he does though...check it out..

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 51 mins (2011-12-22 21:28:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

saperi della costruizone = praxis of construction (what is actually practiced in construction, the

saperi della forma = (theoretical) understanding of shapes/forms...principles like Dr Seuss said could work here too.

It is the difference between praxis and theory.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2011-12-22 23:41:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Last thought for tonight : It seems like you're trying to work out a common word for 'saperi'..maybe 'sense' ..sense of consruction, sense of shapes...

jasonwkingsley
United States
Local time: 12:51
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4

Notes to answerer

Asker: That is fine, but if you look at the context, the author is also using saperi as a metonym for all the architect designers and what they do and for all the builders and what they do and you can't do that with knowledge, understanding or awareness in English. You can with expertise and I've tried playing with that.

Asker: My expertise is in translation, but I'm not quite perfect at it yet, give me another life time or two. He is saying the building expertise and pure architectural design expertise have little in common. The two disciplines have become separated.

Asker: Thank you

3 hrs confidence:

modelling knowledge

Explanation:

..

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 ore (2011-12-22 23:51:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

link: http://www.isprs.org/proceedings/XXXIV/5-W10/papers/hadjri.p...

HIH even though the moderator already gave a hint.

tradu-grace
Italy
Local time: 12:51
Native speaker of:

Italian,

French
PRO pts in category: 12

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thank You Grace

12 hrs confidence:

the disciplines related to form ("of the form/al")

Explanation:
as opposed to the disciplines of building/construction.

I'm fairly convinced that the use of both terms is intended in a loftier and more general manner than mere expertise. Rather, one could consider even a more poetic, and still loftier, "sciences", which, after all, are but "saperi".
That's how I personally would be tempted to translate it – maybe in inverted commas: the sciences of building/construction and the sciences of (the) form(al).
Substantially, there's an even more outrageous example of the "split" than Gehry: Colatrava. He doesn't even bother, or is able to, produce architectural drawings: just makes aquarelles and tells the engineers, "build it!". His is a pure discipline of the form... to the total chagrin of the builder. Generally, architects are progressively becoming all builders' nightmare.

Michael Korovkin
Italy
Local time: 12:51
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English,

Russian
PRO pts in category: 28

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thank you Michael

13 hrs confidence:

design know-how

Explanation:
I think "design know-how" versus "construction know-how" seems to work pretty well here. It highlights the difference between practical talent and aesthetic talent.

Neptunia
Local time: 12:51
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 32

Grading comment

On balance this obvious simplification is probably the best compromise.

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