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English language (monolingual) [PRO] Art/Literary - General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
English term or phrase:Never done tea
Hello everyone, This is from J Austen’s "The Watsons”. There is a ball going on and the phrase in question is used by Lord Osborne, who asks his friend Tom Musgrave to dance with Emma, a charming young girl. Emma has arrived at the ball under the care of Mrs. Edwards, the woman said to have “never done tea.” The ladies at the moment are -or are expected to be- in the tea-room. The passage is as follows:
(Lord Osborne asking Tom Musgrave to dance with Emma) “I was determining on it this very moment my Lord, I’ll be introduced and dance with her directly.’ ‘Aye do – and if you find she does not want much talking to, you may introduce me by and bye.’ ‘Very well my Lord –. If she is like her sisters, she will only want to be listened to. – I will go this moment I shall find her in the tea-room. That stiff old Mrs Edwards has never done tea.’ Away he went – Lord Osborne after him – and Emma lost no time in hurrying from her corner, exactly the other way, forgetting in her haste that she left Mrs Edwards behind.”
I can’t figure what is meant with this “never done tea”, here in this context, and would be grateful for your help. Thank you.
Explanation: The ladies are in the tea room but Mrs. Edwards, who perhaps was expected to brew the tea, hasn't yet done so
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 7 hrs (2024-02-11 17:17:46 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Alternatively this could mean that at these particular gatherings Mrs. Edwards had never brewed the tea - suggesting that it was beneath her to do something so menial
If you have read this far, thank you for your patience. May I just add that reading the answers and the discussion has reminded me of why I once spent so much time here.
Here Jane is humorously contrasting her modest country routine in Steventon with Cassandra’s more fashionable lifestyle at their brother’s stately home, Godmersham Park. The upper classes had dinner much later. “Have done dinner” here obviously means “have finished dinner”.
So when Tom Musgrave says that Mrs Edwards “has never done tea”, he means that she has never finished (having) tea. Tea for her is habitually interminable. We would not put it like this today, but we could say, for example, that someone “has never done” talking about something (or more probably “is never done”: the shift in auxiliary verb from have to be in such constructions is quite marked during the nineteenth century), meaning “never stops” talking about it.
I would argue that this meaning fits the context well. After the first dances, the guests went to the tea-room for refreshments and have now returned. Tom Musgrave wishes to ask Emma to dance, but can’t see her (she is sitting behind a door), so he assumes (wrongly) that she is still in the tea-room with her chaperone, Mrs Edwards, who will still be there, endlessly having tea, because she “has never done tea”.
“Fie, child, a’n’t you ashamed of yourself? Never put the spoon in the cup until you have done tea: I really must send you to school to learn manners.” Edward Bulwer-Lytton, The Disowned (1829), I, 132-33 https://books.google.es/books?id=emLQ8nZpYTgC&pg=PA133
“And when we have done tea my mother washes up the things, and I wipe them” Frederick W. B. Bouverie, Life and Its Lessons; Or, The Past and the Present (1860), 12-13 https://books.google.es/books?id=fu5zyYE-9GwC&pg=PA12
And there are many more. It was used for other meals too. Here’s a good example in a letter from Jane Austen herself to her sister Cassandra:
“We dine now at half past three, and have done dinner I suppose before you begin.—We drink tea at half after six.—I am afraid you will despise us.” Letters of Jane Austen (1884), p. 179 https://books.google.es/books?id=DpKHtf3ZKI8C&pg=PA179
I was passing through the other day and saw this question, which lodged itself in my mind. AllegroTrans has proposed what I think is the correct answer: not the one that was chosen, but the second, tentatively advanced and dismissively received. The “unofficial” Spanish translation Toni found and the German version Björn has quoted got it right too.
Has never done tea is, I believe, related to an expression that was common in Jane Austen’s time but is no longer used: to have done tea, meaning to have finished tea. Here it is in a phrase book:
“When you have done tea, we... Have you done tea? Quand vous aurez pris, or fini de prendre le thé, nous... Avez-vous pris, or fini de prendre le thé?”
In case anyone is reluctant to trust the word of a Frenchman on this, there are many examples in texts by native English-speaking authors in which the meaning is clear from the context. Here are a few:
As far as I'm concerned, you're the only contributor to grasp the subtleties of the text. I do not agree however that the asker has selected the best answer. To replace 'never' with 'not yet' is a fanciful notion and an undue extrapolation.
it would have been Mrs. Edwards' maid, not Mrs. Edwards herself. The following excerpts clearly show glaring differences of social class:
"The Edwards' invitation to the Watsons followed, of course. The Edwards were people of fortune, who lived in the town and kept their coach. The Watsons inhabited a village about three miles distant, were poor, and had no close carriage; and ever since there had been balls in the place, the former were accustomed to invite the latter to dress, dine, and sleep at their house on every monthly return throughout the winter. (...)
As they splashed along the dirty lane, Miss Watson thus instructed and cautioned her inexperienced sister: --
"I dare say it will be a very good ball, and among so many officers you will hardly want partners. You will find Mrs. Edwards' maid very willing to help you... (emphasis added)"
I respect the Asker's choice, just leaving this info for the records.
for your contribution. I had not foreseen the question to be this controversial, but in the event I tend to agree with AllegoTrans’ interpretation that Mrs Edwards is not expected to have brewed the tea yet, and take it that Tom will get to the tea-room to do it for the ladies. It seems to me it fits with the context better. Thanks again everyone
Re. your reply to my neutral comment. At the time that the story was written, the lady of the house would certainly have brewed and served tea. As tea was an expensive commodity, the lady of the house would keep the tea in a locked caddy and the servants were not trusted to handle the tea in case they stole it. If you want a reference, "The lady of the house, or her daughters, if she wished to show them off to advantage, would make and pour the tea and coffee, seeing to it that all guests were served. After tea, the family and any guests might remain in the drawing room to read aloud, sew or play games together until supper (if served) or bedtime" https://janeausten.co.uk/blogs/customs-and-manners/host-a-re... "Servant participation was minimal though: the point of tea was its intimacy, with the lady of the house making and pouring the tea." https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/inspire-me/bridger...
However, she would not brew the tea for herself or anyone else at a ball.
This video might help shed some light on the subject. Starting at min. 15:50, it contains an excerpt by Fanny Kemble (1842) describing her experience of doing tea at the castle of the Duchess of Bedford: https://youtu.be/lsHdmNt9erg?feature=shared The transcript is on this page and it begins with, "My first introduction to ' afternoon tea' took place during this visit to Belvoir [in 1842], when I received on several occasions private and rather mysterious invitations to the Duchess of Bedford's room—she was staying at the castle—and found her with a 'small and select' circle of female guests, busily employed in brewing and drinking tea, with her grace's own private tea-kettle" (emphasis added). For more, please follow this link: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Notes_and_Queries_-_Seri... (PS: This piece of writing is dated about 25 years after J. Austen's death.)
If your doubts may persist, for whatever reason, which is reasonable and comprehensible in view of the difficult question you have asked, do not forget that you may contact THE JANE AUSTEN CENTRE 40 Gay Street, Bath, United Kingdom, BA1 2NT. I do not know them personally, but I am certain they will be willing (and glad) to help you and clear your doubt(s). https://janeausten.co.uk
Formerly known as Mr Oliver Toogood. Please note, as I have told you once before, that my name is not "Top Cat", but "Toni Castaño". And now, fully convinced of your "superior intellectual ability", as you yourself commented in your response to my appraisal of your suggestion, I certainly believe it is the right time to leave this exchange of ideas. Good evening to you.
True, is it not a direct interpretation of the conflictive excerpt, it is just a rendering, but a translation on the “official” web site devoted to the honorable English writer, Ms Jane Austen. I shall try to find an English explanation of that ambiguous (and certainly “conflictive”) excerpt, which seems extremely difficult to me. Meanwhile, as long as a “final” interpretation is not suggested by anyone, “everyone” should exercise what I would call “caution” and “common sense”.
“Official” Spanish Version of the Text: https://janeausten.co.uk/es/blogs/jane-austen-news/the-watso... Iré ahora mismo. La encontraré en el salón de té. Esa vieja y rígida señora Edwards nunca ha hecho té. Esa vieja y rígida señora Edwards nunca ha hecho té. "
Bravo, you could well be correct!! Those are viable points you make. It really could be about frugality. And undoubtedly Lady Osbourne would have held many balls in those assembly rooms.
Just guessing here. Entrance to assembly rooms for a season of balls was paid for by an annual subscription or you could pay at the door if you were just going for one night. If you wanted to have tea then you had to typically pay an extra sixpence at the door (some assembly rooms charged more, some less). Could it be that the reason it was said "That stiff old Mrs Edwards has never done tea" was that although she was wealthy, she was also frugal and didn't usually do tea as it cost extra?
And yes, what you say below is correct. However, your reading of the text was so sloppy that you wrongly assumed Mrs.Edwards was in the tea room, whereas it was actually EMMA, with whom Tom Musgrove wished to dance,and he and Lord Osbourne went to the tea room to fetch her to the dance floor, which was in a different location..
that this particular etymology (e.g. I don't do tea/do cake/do drugs) is entirely twentieth century (and most probably US) in origin. And that "do tea" much more likely meant "make/brew tea" in Jane Austen's time. And nobody called Phil Gerrard has made a comment on here.
Thanks a bunch! Read the first link and part of the second and, OK, it's indeed way more complicated than I thought.
Maybe the following helps: Although Jane Austen never finished the story, it has been translated into more than one language, actually, so I looked up the relevant passage in German (thank you Toni for the idea). It reads: "...alte Mrs. Edwards kann mit dem Teetrinken immer kein Ende finden." In: "Die Watsons / Lady Susan / Sanditon. Die unvollendeten Romane," published by Reclam Verlag.
Seems to match Allegro's explanation (see his second answer).
And started a research, to no avail up till now. But I found a Spanish translation of the book on the Internet (no translator mentioned), where the quoted excerpt is translated as follows: - Muy bien, señor, pero si es como sus hermanas sólo querrá que la escuchen. Voy ahora mismo. La encontraré en el salón de té. La vieja y estirada Sra. Edwards suele tardar una eternidad en tomarlo.
Which in English translates as follows (my translation, only the relevant phrase): The stuffy old Mrs. Edwards usually needs an extremely long time to drink it.
Puzzling, isn´t it? Yes, I admit I am puzzled and cannot explain how the Spanish translator suggested such an interpretation, and whether it is right or wrong.
At a ball in the late 1700s, a young woman would typically go to the tea-room within the assembly rooms with a gentleman (often with a chaperone - in this case Mrs Edwards) and the gentleman would buy the tea in the hope of talking with the woman and getting to know her a bit better. A modern day equivalent would be getting a woman a drink from the bar.
It would also fit in with the following explanation: "The Jane Austen Tea, then, helps us become more aware of how Austen uses tea-time to generate and sustain humor, sympathy, familial love, and romantic attachment among her characters. The tea-table is a profoundly social space in Austen’s novels—as it was in her world. In her fiction, Jane Austen deploys ideas about tea that were circulating in her culture to delightful, at times comic, ends." https://jasna.org/persuasions/on-line/vol29no1/duquette.html...
Thank you and best wishes
PS I know Althea said "...the family drank tea and had muffins..."; I just find it hard to wrap my head around this part. You can find the full text at https://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/watsons1.html
There, you have these two examples: "Mamma said I should be asleep before ten. Do you think Miss Osborne will keep her word with me, when tea is over?"
"On rising from tea, there was again a scramble for the pleasure of being first out of the room..."
Obviously, that's not a direct reference to the drink.
I'm curious: Does this somewhat jibe with what I thought, i.e., that "done tea" is short for (=ellipsis) "done tea time"? I know language evolves, but this kind of collocation can actually be found on multiple ENS pages:
I agree with Christine about the use of narcotics. Mrs Edwards is quite strict in propriety and somewhere she told her daughter and Emma to stay close to her during the ball (except, one would assume, when they are dancing), including the tea-room.
It may possibly relate to what is written earlier in the piece where Mrs Edwards says, "I like to get a good seat by the fire, you know, Mr. Musgrave". The fireplace being at the upper end of the ballroom next to where people would pass by on their way to the card room and the tea-room. In the card room, men and possibly a few women would play cards, and in the tea room women would be served tea by their male escorts (see Northaner Abbey). So, these rooms were a bit less formal that the ballroom. Perhaps this is why Mrs Edwards (who prefers sitting by the fire in the ballroom) is described as "That stiff old Mrs Edwards has never done tea" whereas Emma, (who is much more sociable) is expected to be in the tea-room.
I am not a great Austen scholar, and have never read The Watsons, but my guess is that Mrs Edwards drank her tea without observing the expected ceremony and formalities. Practically all ladies drank tea in Jane Austen's world - it was often necessary to boil water or make beer of it for reasons of hygiene - clean drinking water was not always available. Children were given tea, and I do not think it would be possible - or conceivable - for a lady never to have had tea or to avoid it. However, there were elaborate etiquettes and formalities (which Jane Austen sometimes pokes fun at), and some people made a big issue of observing the rules, while others were more relaxed about them.
Tea was not simply a drink either. It would be accompanied by sandwiches or cakes, and the word ´tea´ in English, as in ´afternoon tea´, can cover a small meal, with or without rituals, to this day.
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Answers
46 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): -3
never done tea
have never had tea before / have never tried tea before
peer agreement (net): -3
